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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Tournament events question
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    Tournament events question
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    Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dartplayer Dot Net Forum Index -> Tournaments and Competition
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    Which event goes? What should organizers DROP?
    Mixed Doubles
    1%
     1%  [ 1 ]
    Open Doubles
    7%
     7%  [ 4 ]
    Men's Doubles
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Ladies Doubles
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Mixed Trios
    67%
     67%  [ 36 ]
    Blind Draw Cricket
    11%
     11%  [ 6 ]
    Blind Draw 501
    1%
     1%  [ 1 ]
    Men's Singles 501
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Men's Singles Cricket
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Ladies Singles 501
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Ladies Singles Cricket
    3%
     3%  [ 2 ]
    None -- Keep them all.
    5%
     5%  [ 3 ]
    Total Votes : 53

    Author Message
    chunky
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    TheCommandant wrote:
    Fair enough Steve, but if Trios gets 68% of the vote (the site is predominantly US) then it ought to be the first to be considered for the axe.


    Don't get me wrong; I know exactly what you are saying, but remember that even though players may complain about certain events, THEY STILL PLAY! That is the important thing.

    Quote:
    What gets me the most on tournament weekends is the lack of time to relax, enjoy the weekend and catch a bite to eat! Most tournaments these days try to run 11-13 events total and if you are playing well and entering them all you never sit down.


    I totally agree, but a lot of the problems are cause by : poor scheduling, starting the event late, and generally slow running of the events. Many tournaments don't allow enough time for an event, and then make it worse by starting it 30 minutes late. Just as bad though, is when things are running late, and instead of putting an event start time back 30 minutes, they start the event on time, which means they are overlapping with the previous event at T16! These are times when delaying the start of an event (and ANNOUNCING it), will help the whole thing run smoother and quicker. Oh, and it does give you time to eat!

    Quote:
    This is why I am in favor of the 100% payout for events that aren't going to matter one way or another. Or a certain payout with the 'or 100%' caveat to entice people.


    That is the smart thing to do. We do struggle to get the women out around here, and that latter option is exactly what I suggest to the associations. I do feel sorry for the women who do show, but you can't afford to lose several hundred dollars on on event. Of course, as far as ADO sanctioning is concerned, simple 100% paybacks cannot be counted towards the total purse, but the second option is fine.

    Quote:
    What worries me is when organizers try to hard to sanction big payouts and lose money on events like the Trios.


    I totally agree, but from my experience, it is not the mixed triples that cost the money, but the ladies events (see above paragraph). The important thing is that when you are running a tournament (particularly a new one), DON'T be too adventurous; DON'T go in over your head.

    Quote:
    For one thing, the sanctioning only means you are going to pay out what's written on the paper and that's it (so it guarantees you lose if turnout is low) and it does nothing else -- no points for standings etc.


    Sorry Erik, I don't fully understand what you are saying about "no points"; please elaborate.

    Quote:
    So there are limits to the effect of having a big tournament.


    Exactly. That is why it is better for an association to run two or three ournaments a year than one big one. Sad though, isn't it, how poor the turnouts are these days compared to 20 years ago?

    Quote:
    My ideal BIG payout event would be less events with higher payouts -- but then looking at the poll on the front page, that is the popular choice also.


    I certainly don't disagree, but you have to look at where your money is coming from. More events means more money coming in...

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    no mixed triples
    no mixed doubles
    all singles and open doubles for both 501 and cricket with a blind draw friday night and saturday night.

    i agree with goerge.
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeCostanza wrote:
    Ged rid of all mixed events PERIOD. Bring back 2 DOUBLES ( 501 & Cricket ) Steve , if you are worried about ladies sitting, they can have 2 doubles too. If they don't get the #'s, don't guarentee their money. Years ago many a person traveling across the US for these tournaments would make sure there was 2 singles/2 doubles to warrant an airfare cost associated with getting there !


    As far as guarantees, read my last post.

    Trouble is, we don't get the numbers we used to, men or women, although it seems to particularly affect the women. If you don't have mixed events, the women lose some of their best money-making opportunities. If that happens, some of the women will stay home. If we lose the women, we lose money coming in. If that happens, the purse has to be lowered, If that happens, some of the men will stay away. If that happens, the purse must be lowered again etc...

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jester wrote:
    no mixed triples
    no mixed doubles
    all singles and open doubles for both 501 and cricket with a blind draw friday night and saturday night.

    i agree with goerge.


    Less events = less income
    Less income = less payout
    Less payout = less players
    Less players = less income
    Less income = read my last post...

    We need the women to have money-making opportunities.
    We need the women to play
    We need the women to attend
    If some of the women stop attending, some will make sure their hubbies stop attending too - FACT.
    Not a good solution.

    So you would rather play $3,000 tournaments instead of $10,000's???

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    chunky wrote:
    TheCommandant wrote:
    For one thing, the sanctioning only means you are going to pay out what's written on the paper and that's it (so it guarantees you lose if turnout is low) and it does nothing else -- no points for standings etc.


    Sorry Erik, I don't fully understand what you are saying about "no points"; please elaborate.


    What I'm saying here is that there are no points awarded for events other then the singles events. So 'sanctioning' a payout for Trios, for example, does nothing but guarantee the payout.

    chunky wrote:

    Less events = less income
    Less income = less payout
    Less payout = less players


    I disagree Smile After all, the highest paying tournaments in the USA are SINGLE event tournaments. And they pay out well below the Top 32 with a total purse of $240,000 each Wink

    But seriously, less events does not mean less income. The Mid-Columbia has done well in it's inaugural 3 years and never lost money. It's also paid out more in it's one event then most tournaments of $5000 to $1000 or equivalent to them. For example, the Camellia Classic paid out $300 to first in the men's singles 501 right? Mid-Columbia paid out $330.

    Oh sure, it paid out in only one event, I'll grant you that, but bear in mind it's one tournament held by a league of only 30 players! That's right, just 30 players in this league and it's holding an event of this nature!

    Now there are two more coming up of similar payouts meaning that a Northwest player will have the chance to earn more then $1100 in just three tournaments by winning just one event! That's more then ever!

    Also, one event drew out 37 entrants while 11 events recently drew less then 30 and typically only draws 40-50 in many cases. Oh sure, there have been times when the big city folks can draw 100+ players, or small town events that have run for years and years like Milton-Freewaters Heartbreak shoot, but I strongly believe that as the Mid-Columbia grows in years and payout so too will it in participation and so far it's grown more and more each year. This year more then 44 attended between the one blind draw and the main event! Last year was 35 or 36 and the year before was just 28.

    I can see the day when we are paying out $5000 for the main event and 120 people enter!

    I think the key is really who you are attracting rather then anything else. A $10,000 event attracts people who look to try to win one or more events and place well in the rest. This puts them in a place where they can pay for the weekend and even make a few dollars.

    A $3000 event is more likely to draw local players both new and old to play the sport they love and win or lose they will have fun -- they will also go to the bigger payout event, but it's less of a draw for them -- they'd play in non sanctioned 100% payout events or charity just as well and might even travel for that purpose (I've met people who travel 240 miles just to play in a non-sanctioned 100% payout event becuase it's fun).

    An event like the Mid-Columbia tends to attract the top local talent (within a region) who are looking for the higher payout of the one event and one heck of a fight but also those who want to compete and put their skills to the test. It's less likely to draw the 'fun' shooters becuase of it's higher entrance fee. Just like the LVDC which often fails to draw top US players becuase it's expensive and the competition is tough -- one might fly out, pay for a room, eat, etc and draw John Part the first day and Raymond Van Barnaveld the 2nd! Shocked It certainly happened last year Wink

    So what are we catering for/to? The Oregon Open is catering to both the local players, the fun players and the travelers from adjoining areas. Nothing wrong with that.

    However, here is a question: If they had two men's singles payout out $1200 each, and two ladies singles paying out $300-$500 each, and then several 100% payout events would it not be just as appealing to you and others who travel? After all, the singles payout would be HIGHER then most other $10k events and the draw for those events would make payouts in the 100% events nicely rewarding.

    Total purse would technically be only $3400 max but the amount of people there would be no less, the competition no less and the rewards no less -- the risk, on the other hand would be far less for the PADA.

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Quote:
    What I'm saying here is that there are no points awarded for events other then the singles events. So 'sanctioning' a payout for Trios, for example, does nothing but guarantee the payout.


    OK, I understand.

    Quote:
    I disagree Smile After all, the highest paying tournaments in the USA are SINGLE event tournaments. And they pay out well below the Top 32 with a total purse of $240,000 each Wink


    Yes, but the payout is not generated from entry fees.

    Quote:
    However, here is a question: If they had two men's singles payout out $1200 each, and two ladies singles paying out $300-$500 each, and then several 100% payout events would it not be just as appealing to you and others who travel? After all, the singles payout would be HIGHER then most other $10k events and the draw for those events would make payouts in the 100% events nicely rewarding.


    Depending on where it is, yes it could certainly be appealing to me. However, don't count on everyone showing. In that kind of situation, a lot of locals would figure that the big boys would be there. Therefore, they may stay home. So, what would happen if you only had 30 players show? 100% payback events wouldn't cover the huge loss incurred by the singles events. That really is my concern as far as cutting back on events.

    Quote:
    the risk, on the other hand would be far less for the PADA


    That's debatable - see above.

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Maybe this will help understand what I am trying to say:



    This is an example of a $2740+ tournament that would more then likely payout somewhere between $3700 (50 entrants) to $6000+ (120 or more entrants)...but only $2740 is guaranteed limiting the leagues liability and paying out more in Singlesevents then other similar sized tournaments.
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I would scrap the mixed triples and add an open doubles event. Like you said Steve, there are twice as many men as women, so half the men wind up sitting the mixed trips event Wouldn't the tournament make more money if all the men were playing more events, as opposed to a mixed trips event?
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    From a high-level, we had about 75% men at the last Oregon Open (around 100 men and 33 or so women).

    As for the comment about having 100% payback events, I think having too many would hurt the turnout since people don't take the time to really notice that the payout consists of only a small number of the events. If they see $10,000 they circle it and consider it, if the see $7,000+ (which may even payout more than the $10k event), they might discount it and keep looking.
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Chitown599 wrote:
    I would scrap the mixed triples and add an open doubles event. Like you said Steve, there are twice as many men as women, so half the men wind up sitting the mixed trips event


    With triples they don't. With mixed DOUBLES, they do.


    Quote:
    Wouldn't the tournament make more money if all the men were playing more events, as opposed to a mixed trips event?


    That's fine, except that the women lose a good-paying event. So, what would they do in the meantime? A nother singles perhaps? After all, the triples will usually payout approximately the same per person as a mens doubles (the same amount of men will be playing). That means the women will get the same payout for doing well in the triples.

    Another thing to remember is that a lot of women will be more inclined to play in a triples event than in a singles event, In a singles, they may feel that they are just throwing their money away, particularly if players like Stacy, Marilyn, and Brenda are there. I'd love to see Brenda respond here, because she can really vouch for that fact.

    Steve
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    TheCommandant wrote:
    Maybe this will help understand what I am trying to say:


    I know what you are saying, but I really don't think that would work with larger tournaments. Plus, if you start small, and establish a tournament with a certain format, you can usually gauge what people will do. It's tough to mess with a big, and well-established tournament. Again though, a lot depends on the way players are, and what they want, in a certain area.

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    From a high-level, we had about 75% men at the last Oregon Open (around 100 men and 33 or so women).

    As for the comment about having 100% payback events, I think having too many would hurt the turnout since people don't take the time to really notice that the payout consists of only a small number of the events. If they see $10,000 they circle it and consider it, if the see $7,000+ (which may even payout more than the $10k event), they might discount it and keep looking.


    That is very true. However Craig, it seems that half the players don't even look at the flier anyway. I'm sick of seeing players play in an event, make it to the money (quite often the final), and then stand there yelling and screaming that the payout sucks! I'm sure that many of you have seen that before.

    I'm sorry, but when you decide to play in a particular event, you are agreeing to the posted payouts/rules etc. If I don't like the look of something, I simply won't play.

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I wonder how many look at total payout versus the singles payout?

    Me? I started looking at the total but soon realized that the singles events were the key to success and concentrated on those. I found that some $10k events paid less in the singles then others and began choosing those that paid higher in the singles over the others.

    Why? I guess becuase I fancy my chances better in the singles and if by some struck of good fortune I actually won Wink I might pay for my trip with that one win.

    This is key for me but perhaps not others.

    I can see another poll coming! hehe
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    the total dollar amount for the big tournaments doesnt mean anything to me because the payouts are small and they payout way to far down. i can play a soft tip friday night blind draw locally and win more money than most first place payouts at these so called 5000 dollar tournaments. if money was what i was really after i would play soft tip where the payouts are much greater and i win on a regular basis. but i dont because i go to the steel shoots for the competition of some of the greatest dart players around. money isnt even secondary, maybe a third thought.
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Quote:
    Another thing to remember is that a lot of women will be more inclined to play in a triples event than in a singles event, In a singles, they may feel that they are just throwing their money away, particularly if players like Stacy, Marilyn, and Brenda are there. I'd love to see Brenda respond here, because she can really vouch for that fact.


    I won't pretend to be in the same caliber as these three very talented women and I will opt out of mixed trips any time I can, but Steve is absolutely right.

    It seems that the majority of women feel more comfortable giving it a go with two partners by their side than on their own. I am always asking women why they don't get in to the singles events, and it is always the same answer, because I could get one of them. My answer is what could be better than getting up against one of them and winning!! But many women just don't feel that way.

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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I know this is an old saying, but give it time Niki, women will soon realize, they are just as good as men on any given day. As one of the top women's shooters, I am sure you don't shy away from any man, and you shouldn't. Women are just as good as men, on any given day.
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    PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Frank, ENOUGH with the political correctness on here allready, will ya Rolling Eyes
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    PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Mark,
    You have played this game long enough to know, I am right. I have seen Stacey and Marilyn to name just 2 women, who can beat a man, at any given time. If you can honestly say I am wrong, than I will stand corrected. It's got nothing to do with political correctness, just plain fact.
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    PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I just keep in mind that he's been known to sleep naked in hotel hallways whenever I read his posts Frank. Laughing
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    PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Memories everyone would like to forget.
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    PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    From a tournament organizers perspective I see value in having a variety of events. One of the ways I support the Colorado Open each year is by doing a player analyisis afterwards. I track every player and what they entered. Outside of the blind draw, the event that brings in the most "only one event" players is mixed triples. In our touranment, we have never lost money on mixed triples so we have never really considered dropping it. If the discussion did come up I would point out that for us this is an event that gets people to play for the first time in a tournament. Looking at long term growth, that is valuable.

    For a players perspective, mixed triples is my least favorite event. So, at some tournaments I just don't play it. There is nothing that says I have to play every event at a tournament. Often, I don't play the draws so I can go out and spend time with friends, or get a little more sleep. For other people the blind draws or mixed triples are their favorite events.
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    PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    I just keep in mind that he's been known to sleep naked in hotel hallways whenever I read his posts Frank. Laughing


    LOL That was years ago Craig before I turned sober Laughing But even back then when I was drunk I knew that women couldn't beat men at darts with any regularity. If they were even close . women like Stacey & Marilyn would lobby for open singles instead of seperating men & women purely for their own financial gain, and someone like Trina Gulliver, who is the " Female Phil Taylor " would have jumped ship to the PDC long ago if she thought she could beat the men with any regularity !

    ...........wow, Costanza going against the mainstream SEWA ? Pure Blasphamy !!!! ( I see another suspension looming ) Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Mark,
    You obviously didn't understand my post. I never said women could beat men regularly, if you read my post, I said at any given time. Which means, it is possible. Stacey has beaten men in big tournaments, are you saying that she hasn't? Or maybe your saying it was a fluke, even though she has done it more than once.
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    Niknak
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    PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Okay, I wanted to post a reply to Mark, but I know that we have gotten completely off topic. But knowing that, here goes anyway. Smile

    I just want to point out what Stacey has shown us recently about a woman "regularly beating" men. Just this year I witnessed Stacy in 3 American PDC events. In all three of those events she went past the first round where she beat men. How many of the men entered in those same events can say they did that? If I remember correctly and this is off the top of my head, the men she did lose to were top english players, you know the ones the American men have difficulty beating.

    I don't know one man who would look at the draw for a PDC event and be happy that they got Stacey in the first round.

    Would Stacey be top points leader for 13 or so years running if she were grouped with the men? Of course not, but what man has done that. I agree, in women's darts Stacey is an entity upon herself, but at least in America she has shown all players what can be accomplished, male or female, if you put the time and effort into it.

    I also believe there is no real reason why women can't beat men regularly, that's why except for tournaments and regionals, I only play against men. And yes Mark, that is for my own financial gain. Smile

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    PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Very well said Niki. Your serve Mark Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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