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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - How Much?
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    How Much?
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    Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dartplayer Dot Net Forum Index -> Tournaments and Competition
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    What payuout is going to attract you the most?
    50%, 30%, 20% pay 3 places only
    29%
     29%  [ 7 ]
    Pay Top 4 -- 45%, 25%, 15%x2
    12%
     12%  [ 3 ]
    Pay Top 8 -- 35%, 20%, 15%, 10%, 5%x4
    29%
     29%  [ 7 ]
    Pay Top 16 -- 25%, 15%, 10%x2, 5%x4,2.5%x8
    29%
     29%  [ 7 ]
    Total Votes : 24

    Author Message
    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:34 am    Post subject: How Much? Reply with quote

    OK, so you are thinking of going to a $3000 tournament with Men's and ladies 501 Singles as part of the weekend. The $3000 will be split between Friday night doubles, the singles and Saturday night doubles. The singles will get $1500 to be divided equally between the ladies and men and the $750 each will be paid out in a format shown in the poll.

    What payuout is going to attract you the most?

    Erik
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I no longer go based on the payouts.
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    q_daman
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well I don't know what the numbers are like down there. But I have yet to see a tournament where the pay-outs in the men's is equal to the ladies. For the simple fact that the number of ladies that show up pales in comparison to the men. The ladies pay-outs are usually about 50-60% of the mens. Actually the tournaments that we have here locally, we usually have to take money from other events, to suppliment the pay-outs of the ladies singles. Which I don't feel is right, but if we were to lower the pay-out for the ladies, that would only lead to lower numbers attending, a catch 22. If I were alotted 1500 for singles, I would have to say the split would have to be 900/600, just based on our attendance figures.
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Q I tend to agree and fought heavily with that at the Mid-Columbia. I finally decided on a 750/250 split with the men getting the bulk of the purse. I did this because the women tend not to show up at tournaments as much as the men and felt that if there was a good turnout we could increase the payout next year.

    At the mid columbia we paid out Top 8 in the mens with 1st getting $300, 2nd getting $150, 3-4th getting $90 and 5th through 8th getting $30 each.

    The ladies got $100, $50, $30x2 and $10x4

    With that payout structure we were twice as high as the Oregon Open at over $3000 but we did this by paying 100% back on the blind draws instead of a set amount.

    I beleive that with a small payout you have to increase the percentages to attract the players and as more enter the event (over the years) you can increase the number of people payed and the total. But you ahve to start somewhere and setting the payout high attracts the out of town players.

    Erik
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    Ramses
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I voted for the top 16...simply because my game isn't all that spectacular and my chances of winning back my entry fee would be increased!

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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    top 3 is my choice. i would rather win more $$ to me its worth it for all the hard work and effort to get to the number 1-3 spots. Its not too bad getting your money back but lets face it i look at that as money spent, i want the other part that i earned.


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    tritap
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I am of the thinking that you should be rewarded for good play. I will gladly donate my money, and if i should happen to do well take someone elses. Playing in a tournament is a gamble, your betting that you throw better than the other guy and if you dont he deserves some kudos and some cash. Same with leagues we pay out on games played not games won and I think thats not much help motivating people to play better. Ivoted for top 3 only.
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    zeeple
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I voted for top 16. If I could get that far I would be happy. And it would make it more worth my while to go. But the honest truth is I'd rather spend my weekends outside with my dog!!
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    Biggy
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    i guess i should read the post before i vote. I like top 3 for weekend shoots, like blind draws, but i like top 8 for bigger tournaments.

    I also think that a tournament should go with the ADO points also. Meaning, if you get ADO points you should get money too. If a tournament is big enough to pay ADO points to top 32 then it has a big enuf payout to pay down to top 32. In other words it has to be over $20000 for top 32 to get points.
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    jester
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    if you pay only top three than hardly anyone has a chance to win any money.. if that is the only reason your going to play.
    you have to give more chances for more people to win money or you will start getting less of a turnout. this ado point thing to me is not important,
    if you can afford to travel and obtain pionts all the time more power to ya but in area it makes no sense to worry about points, unless you think that it makes you a better dart player because you have 2 more points than the next guy on the list. quit worrying about points and play darts.



    top 8 to top 16 in large tournaments and at least to 4 in all blind draws..



    later
    john Twisted Evil
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hey John,

    Should we then consider changing our Friday Night shoots to Top 4? We went to Top 3 to increase (slightly) the amount won by the top teams. Payouts were so low otherwise that they weren't attracting much attention.

    Let me know what you think. Our goal, of course, is to increase the turnout and the payout.

    Erik
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    digger331
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    not to hijack the topic, but I dont really see why there should be a division between mens and ladies competition. I can't see where either sex would have a physical advantage when it comes to darts.

    We all are of the same philosophy that darts is darts and there's no real difference between soft and steel. If this is so, and following the same logic, there shouldn't be any difference between male and female.

    This would put EVERYONE on a level playing field and the question of payouts would be moot. I've played against many female darters who literally wiped the floor with my sorry butt - I think it's a disservice to darts to separate women into their own category when they're just as good as men.

    I think if I ever have a large payout tourney I'll just toss everyone into it - best DARTER wins.
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    digger,
    i agree that everyone should play together. blind draws are that way so y shouldnt other tournaments be that way also..




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    john Twisted Evil
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: How Much? Reply with quote

    digger wrote:
    not to hijack the topic, but I dont really see why there should be a division between mens and ladies competition. I can't see where either sex would have a physical advantage when it comes to darts.

    We all are of the same philosophy that darts is darts and there's no real difference between soft and steel. If this is so, and following the same logic, there shouldn't be any difference between male and female.

    This would put EVERYONE on a level playing field and the question of payouts would be moot. I've played against many female darters who literally wiped the floor with my sorry butt - I think it's a disservice to darts to separate women into their own category when they're just as good as men.

    I think if I ever have a large payout tourney I'll just toss everyone into it - best DARTER wins.


    Our league is debating the topic of seperate throphies, awards and prizes for women players. We are currently split on the issue, but for now will continue to have a womens division for trophies, awards and prizes in league and in any tourneys that we host. The main reason for this is we have very few women participants, and we want to encourage more women to join in league & tourney play.
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I Hate to say it guys, but even the very best women cannot compete with the men.

    Some women DO play on the PDC circuit but NONE of them have made the Top 100. In fact, even the number 1 lady in the world has not made the Top 100 PDC list.

    The Number 1 lady in the USA can certainly kick a lot of men's butts, but dart for dart men seem to be more accurate. Perhaps it has something to do with our stone age days? hehe

    Seriously though, I've watched new women and new men learn to play and the men gain accuracy MUCH faster then the women do! Even women who seem to be naturals.

    Let's take Darci for example, she plays great darts today and is one of the best lady shooters in the Northwest, but I have watched one after another man who just starts out but races quickly to the higher divisions. Why? Testosterone perhaps? Hard to say, but it happens often enough to warrent a consideration.

    Darci in fact, is often saying that she cannot beleive how fast men seem to pick up the game compared to women.

    This isn't to say that women can't get very good, they can, and indeed can get good enough to beat most men they play, but take the top women darters and place them up against the top male darters and suddenly things change. The men tend to be the victors.

    Right now in the ADA the Top Male Darter shoots 26.36840PPDA and Stacy Bromberg shoots 25.36410 which would suggest that I'm perhaps wrong, but then looking at the nuetralizer series and the Top male shooter hits 24.14290 to the Top lady at 15.73330. That's the countries TOP male and female darters in steel tips.

    Looking at soft tips we see Tom Stewart (American League) hitting 33.13910PPDA to Lisa Breuer 20.98780PPDA. That's 13 points per dart AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL of play in the country. In Nuetralizer we see Tim Scott at 36.15580 and Diane Rutkowski at 30.14810. Closer, but still less.

    These are the NUMBER ONE players male and female in the ADA -- nationally!

    Currently the Top 34 Steel Tip players (at the pro cert level) are as follows:
    Rank Name State PPDA 1 JEFF G HUBBARD NV 26.36840 2 JOSEPH P HENEGHAN NV 25.26290 3 JERRY STANLEY TN 23.39370 4 RICHARD L REHM NV 22.88410 5 KIP BERG CA 22.77270 6 TOBY SIMKO PA 22.30180 7 SAUL HERRERA CO 21.78260 8 CHARLEY SAWYER PA 21.64350 9 PAT E CARRIGAN NV 20.87660 10 TONY REA CA 20.87500 11 TOM STEWART PA 20.80690 12 ANDREW FRIEDRICH PA 20.60330 13 JAMES MORGAN TN 20.03230 14 JEFF WARE TN 19.80820 15 MARK B REINECK NV 19.76730 16 JOE GURZENDA PA 19.65090 17 SCOTT A BRUCULERE NV 19.47970 18 CHARLES KRUPILIS PA 19.18140 19 TOBY GRENON FL 19.14460 20 ANTHONY BURNS LA 18.96120 21 JAMES GUTIERREZ CO 18.86790 22 AMERICO S CANQUE NV 18.56640 23 DONALD REESER PA 18.54650 24 CARLOS LEMUS FL 18.50760 25 LAYNE ALLEN CA 18.48890 26 ALVIN MARTIN NV 18.46970 27 GENE FELDBRUEGGE FL 18.40740 28 MAURICE KAMINSKI FL 18.37880 29 FRANK GONZALEZ PA 18.32160 30 BRIAN COOPER CO 18.30350 31 ROBERT WEHDE CO 18.17090 32 RAYMOND VOLPI LA 17.89290 33 OTT MCNEELY FL 17.73000 34 JASON LINDROTH FL 17.53190

    The ladies have only ONE lady playing at or above 17.5PPDA here are the Top 34:1 STACY BROMBERG NV 25.36410 2 BETHANY SWAIN NV 17.28570 3 LINDA BANKSTON LA 17.00000 4 ROSE CARRIGAN NV 16.62320 5 KARI MORGAN TN 16.16020 6 BRIE GONDRELLA LA 16.11110 7 MICHELLE LEDFORD TN 14.94580 8 MAL NOLASCO LA 14.30770 9 SUSAN MC CARTNEY LA 13.35030 10 LINDA GUIDROZ LA 13.03280 11 NITA MILLER LA 12.81960 12 LA DONNA ORGERON LA 12.81940 13 LAURA J MENGEL-CRESPO NV 12.58820 14 SONJA TAPPIE LA 12.51920 15 WANDA WEAVER LA 12.51280 16 DESIREE THORNTON LA 12.47450 17 JEANNE BEEBE LA 12.40870 18 JAMIE KNECHT LA 12.39530 19 TERRIE OCKMAND LA 12.33420 20 DAWN OTT LA 12.32780 21 GRACE BROWN FL 12.28420 22 DAWN DUFRENE LA 12.27340 23 SALLY THORSON CO 12.22620 24 BRANDY ORGERON LA 12.07980 25 TRACIE MCCONNELL NV 12.00800 26 JAN BLAIS LA 11.99720 27 MARIE CREPPEL LA 11.89820 28 ERICA GONDRELLA LA 11.73890 29 SANDY BREAUX LA 11.68270 30 TAMMY FAZENDE LA 11.67980 31 DAWN FALCON LA 11.54270 32 DELORES DANTIN LA 11.54090 33 CHARLESTE GONDRELLA LA 11.53190 34 CATHY RUIZ LA 11.33810

    Sorry for the long post, but anyone saying that ladies shoot as well as men are simply incorrect as the Top 34 ADA Darters in the American League demonstrates.

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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    On a side note we do have 4 players in the SEWADL league currently playing above the 17.5 level, so perhaps that is another reason why locally there just aren't any women that can play at that level considering there is only one in the nation in the ADA American league that does -- Stacy.

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    jester
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    i dont necassarily think that women are as good as men, some are dont get me wrong. but i think that women deserve the chance to play with the men if they feel comfortable enough to do so. there should be a choice for them to go for the bigger money, not just take it from the men when they get home, LOL.


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    john Twisted Evil
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Oh I agree with that wholeheartedly Smile There are women that compete with the men on the PDC circuit and I have no issue with that at all, I just don't think anyone should force them to. They should be encouraged to play the game and if playing with just women in tournaments works for them then I am all for it.

    I know in our local blind draws though, that the women do NOT want to be drawn together! They always want us to make the draws coed/mixed and if it's an even number of men and women (or close) then we often do. When we don't they generally aren't impressed.

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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The top 100 list does not lie. I dont completely agree. We have quite a few ladies here in Minuteman that can lay a serious spanking on the men. They are few and far between, but they are there. None of these ladies play in an ADA league to track their stats. Also they dont hit the ADO circuit of tournaments to score well. Sex means nothing in darts. There is just way more men than women to compare. Just my opinion. (been beat by a few along the way)
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I know in our local blind draws though, that the women do NOT want to be drawn together! They always want us to make the draws coed/mixed and if it's an even number of men and women (or close) then we often do. When we don't they generally aren't impressed.

    Erik



    I've been keeping up with your "weighted" drawing posts, and if you draw mixed teams in your blind draw, isn't this against the ADO way of doing things?

    One way of solving this problem as we have done here, is in most larger tournaments, we do a Ladies Singles, and an Open Singles, so if the women want to mix it up with them men they can.
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    With only $3000 on the line I think top three is reasonable. Perhaps at $5000 top 5. However, I do not see giving 4th or 5th places bug money. Perhaps only double the entrance fees. It's great to get money back but it is better to be a winner.

    Soft tip has a great plan though. Pay as many people as you can and make them all feel like winners. Wow! Great! You got into the top 20 amd made some money. (I understand the logic and I can't disagree with it because it works, but I don't actually like it.)
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    1oh1out wrote:
    I know in our local blind draws though, that the women do NOT want to be drawn together! They always want us to make the draws coed/mixed and if it's an even number of men and women (or close) then we often do. When we don't they generally aren't impressed.

    Erik



    I've been keeping up with your "weighted" drawing posts, and if you draw mixed teams in your blind draw, isn't this against the ADO way of doing things?

    One way of solving this problem as we have done here, is in most larger tournaments, we do a Ladies Singles, and an Open Singles, so if the women want to mix it up with them men they can.


    Yes and No.

    Yes, if they were ADO tournaments then it should not be done that way (and I don't do it that way) and no, they aren't ADO tournaments but rather 'fun' friday night blind draws in which we get 10 to 20 people depending on the week. Last night we had 10.

    We don't always do this, but when we do it is announced and everyone knows. We do either 'total blind draw' 'mixed blind draw' or singles. In a mixed draw you randomly select a woman, then a man. And yes, you could argue that it is fixed then, but I will argue that it is not a sanctioned event so it doesn't matter (said that in my ADO forums also). Provided everyone knows what you are doing up front -- and with 10 people that's easy enough Smile

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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You can run into problems there too Erik.

    If you have drawn all the women and a male partner for each and there are 4-6 men left over, what now?

    And lets say that 2 of the men left are the 2 best in the house!

    Do you take the weaker player and darw with a better male partner to make things as fair as possible, or completely random and risk having the 2 best players in the house get drawn together!

    Blind draw should be exactly what it is advertised as!

    I cannot understand the women not being impressed. There is NOadvantage being a male in darts.

    I dont mind getting drawn with a lady partner. The problem is some of them talk too much (so do some men for that matter) and I get off my game!

    My pub pays for 180's thrown (free drink) So if I can hammer 2 o180's and come top 4 or better, my night is free and some money in my pocket to boot!
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    5uperman wrote:


    Do you take the weaker player and darw with a better male partner to make things as fair as possible, or completely random and risk having the 2 best players in the house get drawn together!



    It doesn't work that way at all. All names are placed on a 'roster'. If the draw is to be 'mixed' then blue chips are drawn for women and red for men.

    The Blue chips will match one each of the red chips, the rest will match each other.

    When the draw is done it is random except that a blue chip is drawn when a womans name comes up.

    There is no telling who is on what team until the names are written on the sheet in order (1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5 -- each pair of numbers represents a team).

    Personally, I DON'T like this at all and would prefer all weekend tournaments to be total blind draws -- period. However, I don't get to decide what is done every night -- if I did I would draw totally random or have an Open Doubles, Open Mixed or Open Singles. I would charge at least $10 a head, pay Top 3 only and probably run double elimination, becuase I don't beleive in rewarded you because you showed up, I think if you get something back, it ought to be becuase you earned it and taking Top 4 when there are only 5 isn't earning anything -- perhaps I'm not PC enough.

    It doesn't really matter though, because it's hard enough in this town to get people to pay their entry fee (at $7 a head) much less convince them that they have to work hard to get it back.
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    In the 26 yrs that I have been involved with darts, I have seen many different formates for the pay out. I think that when there is more players you can pay down the line more. Let say that you had 8 teams in the tournament would you want to pay 4th place, but with 16 team you could pay down to 5th and 6th place without loosing very much at the top. Paying out 3 places with 8 team is the same % as paying down to 6th with 16 teams, they both pay out .375% of the field.
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