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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Should Tournaments be Random Draw?
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    Should Tournaments be Random Draw?
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    ADO Sanctioned tournaments should be:
    Totally Random Draws!
    91%
     91%  [ 68 ]
    Seperated by city/state and then drawn randomly.
    5%
     5%  [ 4 ]
    Who cares?
    2%
     2%  [ 2 ]
    Total Votes : 74

    Author Message
    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Should Tournaments be Random Draw? Reply with quote

    OK, you've probably already seen the arguement about ADO Sanctioned tournaments. Now it's time to take a poll.

    This can be about any tournament (becuase they all should be random unless seeded) but specifically ADO Sanctioned events that have money payouts.

    Thanks for the comments and taking the poll (ahead of time).
    Erik
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As a clerification on the speration of city and state, what this means is to make piles for each location then when the draw is done you draw one name from location A and place on a sheet (Roudn Robin sheet) and then a name from location B and so on until you comoe back around to location A again or run out of names.

    As stated before, the problem I have with this is that it virtually ensures that the better players will not be given any 'good' draws since they travel to the tournaments (they are generally those willing to travel) and thus will always be drawn together.

    Erik
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    Taechon
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    A "Blind draw" is just that... "A Blind Draw." If it is not a blind draw it is something else. Call it what it really is... "A handicapping system."
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Just a note, but this type of drawing refers to both 'blind draw' or 'luck of the draw' events but also to singles events where players are placed in round robin sheets and play each other to determine who will get to go to the knock out round where all the money is.

    Erik
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    vote vote vote! Come on folks! There are nearly 400 members on the site and about 300 to 400 come here daily at the least! So lets see that become 300 votes!

    This is your chance to speak out, your chance to excersise your right to choose! And NO ONE will know how you voted unless you tell them.

    That's the beauty of these polls -- but you only get one vote Smile So no dead people please! hehe

    Erik
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    14 to 1...only 15 votes! Come on folks, lets get voting! hehe

    If you haven't voted yet, please do! If you have, THANKS!

    Your opinion will make a difference!

    Also, feel free to voice those opinions!
    Erik
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Erik wrote:
    As a clerification on the speration of city and state, what this means is to make piles for each location then when the draw is done you draw one name from location A and place on a sheet (Roudn Robin sheet) and then a name from location B and so on until you comoe back around to location A again or run out of names.

    As stated before, the problem I have with this is that it virtually ensures that the better players will not be given any 'good' draws since they travel to the tournaments (they are generally those willing to travel) and thus will always be drawn together.

    Erik


    Correction: I am being told that all 'out of town players' are put in one pile, then locals in another and then drawn as above.

    To me this is still wrong as the pile should consist of ALL players regaurdless of location.

    Keep polling, the numbers at 16-1
    Erik
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    5uperman
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    If its a ranked event, then ranking players are entitled to having the tournament seeded. If it os not a ranked shoot, then completely random, computer drawn sections!

    thats it, now locations showd come into play here, thats BS.

    I have been to a tournament with 4 guys from my town carpooling, and 3 of us got drawn on the same sheet, with 8 sheets, 3 of us get drawn for 1.
    tough luck, thats the way it goes.
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    5uperman wrote:
    If its a ranked event, then ranking players are entitled to having the tournament seeded. If it os not a ranked shoot, then completely random, computer drawn sections!

    thats it, no locations showd come into play here, thats BS.

    I have been to a tournament with 4 guys from my town carpooling, and 3 of us got drawn on the same sheet, with 8 sheets, 3 of us get drawn for 1.
    tough luck, thats the way it goes.


    I agree obviusly.

    Speaking of seeding, the tournament is an ADO points event (the Top 8 receive points) so if that is what you mean by ranked then yes it is.

    The ADO does allow seeding and using their ranking system would suit them fine.

    Either way, the draw shoudl be random and using a computer is well, the thing to do today.

    Erik
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Actually, I just talked with Roger and he simply sets up the flights so that the out of towners won't have to play each other right away (unless there are enough that more than one will end up in the same flight). He's been doing this for years because of the complaints he received about players flying in just to play someone they usually play. Not exactly what I thought I read in your other thread and, since he OWNS the tournament, he's completely allowed to do it.

    I think I misunderstood your original topic and thought that the out-of-towners were being "fixed" to have to play each other. I can't say I see too much wrong with what he's doing and will continue to play in the event. Needless to say, your poll doesn't really cover this option.
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    5uperman
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    For example, if there are 80 men playing singles and 15 of them are ranked it matters not what their ranking is the highest ranked player in the event becomes #1, next hightest #2 and so on, and there are 8 sheets it looks like this.

    Sheet = S

    S1 #1 and #9 and 8 random players
    S2 #2 and #10 and 8 random players
    S3 #3 and #11 "
    S4 #4 and #12 "
    S5 #5 and #13 "
    S6 #6 abd #14 "
    S7 #7 and #15 "
    S8 #8 and 9 random players

    top 4 on each seheet advance to knock out. thats what I am used to.
    thats what i think it should be like!
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    Actually, I just talked with Roger and he simply sets up the flights so that the out of towners won't have to play each other right away (unless there are enough that more than one will end up in the same flight). He's been doing this for years because of the complaints he received about players flying in just to play someone they usually play. Not exactly what I thought I read in your other thread and, since he OWNS the tournament, he's completely allowed to do it.

    I think I misunderstood your original topic and thought that the out-of-towners were being "fixed" to have to play each other. I can't say I see too much wrong with what he's doing and will continue to play in the event. Needless to say, your poll doesn't really cover this option.


    Craig,

    As stated elsewhere, I know that Roger makes two piles, one for locals and one for out of town players, and then draws from both piles.

    This is wrong and not random and it doesn't matter what the reasons are. There are many reasons to do many things, but that does not make them right.

    An ADO SANCTIONED MONEY Tournament should be random drawn.

    That is what the poll question asks.
    Erik
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    Dart_talker
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Should Tournaments be Random Draw? Reply with quote

    Quote:

    Decisions regarding the prize structure and event schedule, the method of player registration, and the choice of the match pairing system, are left at the discretion of local Tournament Organizers.
    http://www.adodarts.com/pdffiles/TournamentRulesBooklet.pdf


    Not that this will change anyones minds, but the rules allow for weighted draws. I think that totally random draws are nice, but I think if the Tournament Organizer (TO) wants to encourage people to travel to the tourney by making sure that carpool mates don't have to knock each other out in the first few matches then so be it. I take it this is not the first time this has been done this way, and if this method ensures a good turnout then the TO has done his job. The "weighted draw" may even be a positive draw for the Tourney, and perhaps some who would not otherwise attend rely on that "weighted draw." At the end of the day all that matter will be: did people enjoy the tourney, will they spread the word about the next tourney, and will they return? If it would help to have the draw identified as "weighted" on the flyer then that would be a good recommendation to make. Then those who dislike "weighted draws" could avoid them.

    My thought on rules about darts are this:
    If a rule is an absolute then make that know.
    Rules should be clear and simple.
    Rules should point you in the right direction to the desired destination not dictate every step you take.
    Don't make rules for things that don't require rules.
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The problem is, tournaments in the Northwest are declining in entrants. The payout is declining and PADA and others have lost money for years.

    Why?

    Because tournaments aren't touchy feely love affairs, they are fights. Fights in which someone will lose and someone will win and the winner gets PAID MONEY for winning AND gets awarded RANKING POINTS that says "He's/she's better then you" (at least on that day) for doing so.

    Why are Northwest tournaments losing people? Why are they not growing if it's all about meeting new people and having fun? And if it's ok to 'fix' the draw?

    Because people do not travel 250, 500 or 1000 miles to meet new people and have fun! They travel there for a chance to win some money in their chosen sport. They want to compete and see if they are better then the rest of the entrants in the tournament and dammit, the draw should be absolutely fair when determining who plays whom to get to the top!

    They ALSO meet people and make friends becuase that is a byproduct of GOOD COMPETITION.

    I know, I'm losing my mind.

    An ADO sanctioned tournament is set up to guarantee payout to the winner and top entrants right? Why bother doing that if it isn't about the money.

    Someone needs to help me out here.

    Last year only 42 people played on Friday night of the Oregon Open...why? Because a $300 added soft tip event was going on at the same time!!!!!!!!! The Oregon Open lost money and the organizers couldn't figure it out.

    People DO NOT want to travel that far to meet and greet, they travel that far to crush and destroy. Otherwise, why do they get upset with themselves when they lose?

    Going crazy
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I've actually watched players verbally abuse themselves (haven't we all) becuase they were not playing well and got knocked out of a tournament and I have to wonder why this is if playing in the tournament was just to meet and greet people? If that's the case, then isn't the point to have fun with friends and it doesn't matter if you don't play well?

    In fact, why try to darn hard to win if there isn't something to winning?

    I remember a thread on dartplayer.net which asked the question "Play well and lose, or play poorly and win" which is better? Or something like that.

    I remember then that the vast majority would rather win no matter what they played like! Why? Why is winning important if the whole idea is to hang with buddies and have fun?

    In fact, why pay anything at all if it isn't about money?

    I think people who say they don't play for the money are kidding themselves. After all, make your major tournament free to enter and have NO payouts and then see who shows up.

    There is of course two sides to every coin, and in japan where they are not allowed to play for money, thousands show up to play, but I think the circumstances are different there. i think that if you offered them a chance to earn money they would play there instead.

    Erik
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    OK, I won't let this die.

    24-3 in favor of total random draw.

    Is that it? No one else wants to chime in? We need to see those voting numbers go up! Way up!

    Come on folks, you are voting on something that could effect YOUR tournaments!

    Erik
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Can you switch a vote Erik?
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Preference for this could be based on your stature as a dart player.

    If I was a top ranked player I would prefer to have a seeded system so that I wouldn't randomly be selected to play against another top seed in the early rounds.

    Conversely, if I was not a top ranked player, I would prefer random draws in hopes that some of the top players faced each other early and knocked each other out. And of course with fixed brackets, draw them in the other one, not mine. LOL
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    Can you switch a vote Erik?


    No Craig, sorry, but I'm surprised that you would consider that. I would have thought that you would have agreed that a draw should be totally random and that no one should be given any kind of preference or consideration unless they were ranked and this were a seeded draw.

    Erik
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    PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    my opinion is a total random draw i don't care if i play carver, kucinsky, or a young in 1st rnd or joe blow who never thru a dart just throw all entries in & draw the matchups if top seeds knock each other out early too bad
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    PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As a ranked player, I see both sides.
    1 total random is how I started playing, We did not adjust the draw for anything. This is how I started and how I see it continuing.

    Random draw:

    You could get the sweetheart draw, all of the usual suspects are in the other bracket. As long as you shoot well you make the finals.

    draw backs for pros, you could face the only other pro in the room and loose. tough!! you start with the finals and move on. there is no absolute in darts.

    Draw backs for Average Joe, you draw the 2nd best player and beat him!! Then you have to face the #1 player the next round, and if you beat him, you play the winner of #4 and #7. Hard road, but that the luck or lack of the draw.

    Seeded draw:

    pros: do not have to play each other until the top/ money rounds. Makes for more drama and usually insures a better match up for the $ rounds.

    Average Joe: If you beat your seeded player, you do not have to play another seeded player until the $ rounds.

    Chris
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You have to seed the events. So johnny K, and Ray spend $500 a piece to go to a tournament across the way. Meet each other in the first round . . . Now What?

    Speaking for myself I like it because now one of the big guns are gone, but as far as maintaining points on is screwed. I mean it's very possible if one is drawn in the top half and the other the bottom half they chould meet in the final.
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    PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SLEEPYKRAMER wrote:
    There were so many times years ago that JK would go to a tournament and sure enough...first round...Rick Ney or Jerry Umberger or Danny Valetto....or Tony Payne....it was almost comical to them because it ended being in their mindset.."oh well, whose weekend is it this time?"
    Yeah sure, the other players loved it......but when you are making your living at it, it is rather unpleasant.


    Looks like we're the minority for seeding tournament
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SLEEPYKRAMER wrote:
    Allright Erik.....so how did the vote end up?


    If you voted then you should be able to see the total.

    86% in favor of total random draws.

    40 in favor.
    4 seperated by City State
    2 in 'Who Cares'

    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    have to be seeded........ and the rest random draw. The seeds have earned the right by travelling and winning to some protection, if others dont travel or win points why should tournament draws help them out.

    Either travel more or win more and earn yourself a seeded spot.......

    but at the end of the day....... the seeded player is there with three darts just the same as unseeded...... you can win from all and lose from all, and to win overall you have to beat everyone in front of you
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