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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Head to head action....
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    Head to head action....
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    Head to heads?
    They are what we need and yes I would pay.
    52%
     52%  [ 13 ]
    It would be nice to know our players have the balls to go head to head. Yes I would pay to see this.
    36%
     36%  [ 9 ]
    Knock yourself out, but not intersted in paying for that.
    12%
     12%  [ 3 ]
    Total Votes : 25

    Author Message
    R_D_Carter
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 am    Post subject: Head to head action.... Reply with quote

    How many folks would be willing to pay an entry fee to watch a head to head with players such as:
    Johnny K. vs Darin Young
    Ray Carver vs Jimmy Widmayer
    Roger Carter vs Bill Davis
    David Fatum vs Steve Brown
    Chris White vs Scott Wollaston
    and so on with lots of players in the pool.
    If these players were to put up their own money, would locals pay at the door to come in and watch the match, say a best of 31, 501, matchplay format. I haven't spoke to any of these players, but this could be done on a thursday before a large, 15 to 20, 000, at a local establishment that was willing to host the event and put on a guarenteed blind draw following the action.
    Sound intersting? Lets hear what you think.
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'd pay, but I don't think your going to pack any arenas. What are you expenses. You have to figure out for every player, how many specators will be there. If your expenses are $300 then you need to find 10 spectators that will pay $30 apiece to break even. and if you have 10 players, then you have to find 100 spectators to pay $30 apiece, or 200 at $15 a piece which would be most likley.

    I guess your just asking the question to see if there is enough interest to even begin the mathmatics.
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    kyjosa
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Heck yes I would pay!!! That is one of the main reasons Erik and I went to the LVDC. I never expected to have a chance to win, I wanted to see the pros play!

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    dartflight
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hey Roger, I've always said, "You can't complain about something, unless you are willing to help change it"!

    Sounds like a great idea, however, wouldn't it be a neat idea to have this as a traveling matchplay? I vote yes!
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    warp1
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Roger, sounds like a great idea and I voted yes. But would probably come down to price and convenience.

    For example, I went all the way to Va Beach prior to the WSOD's to watch the players you listed above play. Sure, I signed up for a couple of events but main reason for going was to watch you guys. Also went to the WSOD's for the same reasons.

    Trouble I would see is 1) at least an extra day of required vacation to watch. 2) extra night in a hotel. 3)I would get to see all ya play Saturday and Sunday for free in the various finals anyway.

    The biggest advantages would be extended format, professional environment, and no risk of getting stuck chalking...lol.

    Like I said, I'd probably go but not sure of the turnout and would depend on costs etc....
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think
    David Fatum vs Scott Wollaston
    would be better
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SLEEPYKRAMER wrote:
    Agent5432 wrote:
    I think
    David Fatum vs Scott Wollaston
    would be better


    I don't think their heads would fit in the same venue Laughing Laughing Laughing


    I'd pay $30 to hear these two in best of 31 over the radio . . . as long as both players are mic'd up and it's not sensored.

    As far as that goes what about Widmayer takes on Dave Kelly.

    or better yet a legends match between Steve Brown vs Paul Lim


    What about recording these match to DVD. I think this would be more economical, and profitable for everyone.

    . . . and don't forget Wethington
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SLEEPYKRAMER wrote:
    Agent5432 wrote:
    I think
    David Fatum vs Scott Wollaston
    would be better

    How about a Saturday night instead. Get rid of the mixed event that is usually Sat night....those usually have the poorest turnout, schedule a (example only) 7pm exhibition and maybe an 8 or 8:30 blind draw. Incorporate it into the weekend, instead of adding the extra day.


    Yes Please, dump some events.
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SLEEPYKRAMER wrote:
    Agent5432 wrote:


    Yes Please, dump some events.


    Wouldn't it be nice to go back to those "good old days"......2 doubles, 2 singles and maybe a mixed event or a blind draw thrown in instead of a 13 event weekend.

    That's the point I was trying to make....get rid of some events....dump the money into the singles, make it a longer format and give the players an evening of a pro taking on a pro....best of 51....1001...for a $1000....that's the way they used to play. Maybe get the local pubs where the tournament is at to sponsor to cover the $1000...or businesses in the area. Sell them an advertising sign on a dart board for the weekend. 20 sponsors on 20 boards at $50 each and voila, you have your $1000.
    There are so many ideas out there.....somewhere along the way, someone needs to give them a try. Laughing


    My solution is have an amateur and pro tournaments.
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    R_D_Carter
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    PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    My sole intentions were for the local player at each tournament. There are approximatley 10 larger tournaments of 15 to 20,000. If we do a challenge at each on a Thursday night with a blind draw to follow, then the locals will have the opportunity to see great darts in a private setting. Tournaments do not give you this and a lot of folks have never seen an event such as this. The Embassy and the Ladbrokes provides this for a great crowd and I feel the U.S. players are missing out on the action. No we won't have the perfect turn out on a local basis, but it will give them the opportunity to see this type of excellence we as american darters can provide.
    Remember, in the early '90s, 15 players started an organization due to the lack of money and television tournaments provided to them. This group now boasts 300+ members and hosts several televised events as well as a premier league of the best players in darts. This organization is now known as the PDC and has one of the largerst websites, next to SEWA, for dart players around the world.
    I don't know how far head to heads will get us, but it will show how good we are and at the same time give us some stage time and get some of us used to playing in front of a great crowd.
    I personally think the fact that the players are putting up THEIR money, will fuel folks to expect a great and challenging match. No one likes to lose their own money and the players will be ready and up for the match. I think it will be great for darts, now and in the future.
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    PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think it's a great idea too, but who's going to show up on Thursday? I had hard enough time showing up on Fridays? Just the locals. If you wre to have this on Fri, Sat, or Sun you'd probably match the number of locals with the people that traveled to the tournament. I don't think your going to compensate your expenses just from the locals tournament entry fees.

    If you have this tournament on Thurs. your adding another day of expenses.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That is why it is for the locals and anyone else that can possibly make it on Thursday. The money is not going to come from paying at the door, it is coming from whoever wins the head to head. I could care less how much the door brings, I want to keep my grand in my pocket and put someone elses in with it. So as I had already stated, until it gets big enough, it is for the locals and hopefully we can do these in all areas of the U.S. so everyone will get a chance to watch.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Quote:
    I personally think the fact that the players are putting up THEIR money, will fuel folks to expect a great and challenging match. No one likes to lose their own money and the players will be ready and up for the match. I think it will be great for darts, now and in the future.


    So there will be some players that lose their own money. You know there is a way nobody has to lose money.

    How many dart players come out ahead, or break even for the weekend. Now add an extra day Question

    I guess if Roger said it, it must be a great idea. everybody else feel free to fall in line

    OK . . . it's good for darts I'll agree, but it's a steping stone to nothing. What you have is a Pro tour without money. and I'll agree with player putting their own money in will lead to spirted competition. You might get people to commit to 10 cities, but after that first year see how many return.

    I guess if you want to have a mini embassy in 10 different citys it will be good. I just think it's a little short sighted. The locals will have a fun night and see some world class darts, then you'll all leave that Sunday, and life will go on as before you came.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Maybe I come off a bit angry . . . bitter . . .

    The Head to Head is the foundation for a pro tour. You can have it sponsored by Unicorn. I see Unicorn stuff in dart supply stores, also places like Wallmart, and Target. Wallmart, and Target are place where peoples interest get started. What seems obvious to us, isn't so obvious to the passer by. You have dart boards, darts, but nothing for people to see to patteren themselves after. A DVD would give the beginner a look at profesional darts and all the different style and methods people have.
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    Agent5432
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I just can't leave this alone. Are you saying the reason you don't care about money is because player will be more motivated to win lets say $1000 when they have invested thier money to be there, vs. having had $300 expense money to appear? Yea he starts the weekend ahead, but i don't think he will be any less motivated.

    Why can't we organize and put in effect an apparatus to promote 6 of America's top players a lot like the Premier league. That will be expense free and allow player to make money?

    There isn't any money in darts, that's one reason why we lose our greatest talents after 2-3 years.

    This is America! After all the time the ADO has been around, and all the people involved in darts now, we don't players making a full time living just playing darts. I'm talking at least $50,000 a year if not more for at least 6 players.

    If darts is to be recognized as a sport, it's going to have to produce players who sole income comes from their respective sport.

    I think Sleepy Kramer put it best. Look at the prize money at tournament 20+ years ago, they are the same as they are today.
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    R_D_Carter
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I guess if Roger said it, it must be a great idea. everybody else feel free to fall in line
    _____________________________________________________________

    WOW!!! Now Steve, why you want to go there. It has nothing to do with notariety on my part. It is about 30 to 50 folks coming in and watching some great darts. If 30 folks come to watch, pay $25 a head each, it will turn into a $750 blind draw for the night. That is after the head to head is over. No, no one is getting rich for the weekend off darts, but it will make the two players compete at a level most folks don't get to see, ever. Unless they watch television.
    Heck, I remember when you used to go and give it a go at tournaments. Not easy is it. Maybe an attitude is what you need sometimes, and my attitude is getting pretty red as to the way dart players are thinking lately. I remember when they used to have the nerve to go head to head, and I feel most the top players are willing to do this at certain tournaments during the year.
    Would you like to schedule one and see who in Kansas City will come out and watch? Let me know partner, I am ready to get this whole thing started.
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    R_D_Carter
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    [quote="Agent5432"]I just can't leave this alone.

    Oh and by the way, I am glad you can't leave this alone. It means there IS interest in whether it will work or not. Maybe someone, like yourself, will come out just to see who shows for it. Hopefully there will be a lot of folks, dart players like yourself, that will do the same.
    Keep the fuel burning brother.
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    SWEETS
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Rog , i wish we could have this HEAD TO HEAD played at our WITCH CITY OPEN here in MASS.. but we won't go there...... Good luck with getting this going.. I would check this out if it was local ..Not only would Ray play but the rest of my teammates, Tom Curtin, Bob adamson, Fred krueger and Pete morrison might be very interested as well.. Good luck Rog... .. kevin lynch
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    R_D_Carter wrote:
    WOW!!! Now Steve, why you want to go there. It has nothing to do with notariety on my part.


    I'm not suggesting any degree of narcisissim on your part. I just want people to think for themselves. I don't want people to just go along with it because your a Pro. . . . Well R.C. said it so he must have covered every angle. Just because your not a pro dosen't disqualify your from contributing to the conversation. You might even have something that you think is completely obvious, but we all over looked it because we are jumping on the train of someone else.

    I just think your selling yourself short. If there were 6 players that are commited to all 10 tournements, then I think the tour could work something out so it is expense free for all 6.


    R_D_Carter wrote:
    Heck, I remember when you used to go and give it a go at tournaments. Not easy is it. Maybe an attitude is what you need sometimes, and my attitude is getting pretty red as to the way dart players are thinking lately. I remember when they used to have the nerve to go head to head, and I feel most the top players are willing to do this at certain tournaments during the year.


    Yes we used to have some good ones when I made it down south, particularly Huntsville. I used to love to go to Huntsville because I got pushed into having to hit big shots, not just big shot, but big shot all the time. That is what competition does, it make you a better player. Once you become the best in a city, you have to leave and find better competition. But I don't need to tell you that. That is what the Head to Head competition could be about. Once you get to be the best guy in the region, you have to play the best from other regions and not logistics plays a key role. If you get 6 guys to commit to these 10 tournament you have that part solved.

    I will say burnout will play a key role, and burnout usually enter first via the wallet. If there is a way to support these 6 player you will see a lot less players leaving after they make the top. Also you will give a reason for the next available player to compete for those spots, other than a Blue Jersey.

    Here where we see eye to eye. I understand and agree about not making money off the locals. In other words you don't want 6 players coming in town and shaking down the locals for all their cash.

    R_D_Carter wrote:
    my attitude is getting pretty red as to the way dart players are thinking lately


    I don't know what your on about here, but I were to guess I'd say this.

    One. Players are looking for a way to profit from the system without giving back. Take, Take, Take.
    Two. Players flapping there lips and complaining, but they are not making any attempt to take action.

    I used to race bicycles at a national class level, that's what I love, and that what I think about doing. Even when I was at my best playing darts, when I heard a great song, or was motivated, in my mind I'm always on my bike doing what I love to do so I went back. I was working on my pro MTB license (There are 4 different classes of riders of which pro is the top level) and had a kid last year and kinds threw a monkey wrench in the works. I had tenetive plans to come back to darts because I'm more or less home bound right now, but I working with local cycling teams with riders and sponsors. Actually I deal with a lot of Egos that believe they are the next Lance, but haven't really shown the goods. I deal with a lot of "What do I get", "What's for free", . . . Me, Me, Me . . . All I gott'a say is "Aint't nothins for free brother, you gotta earn it.

    But at least the sport of cycling has made it. Where as dart hasn't and there is going to be a lot of sacrifc's to be made. What this generation of players has to do is go out and promote dart with nothing in return. . . . WOW! hey wait that is what you are talking about. R.C. Showing up to the events a day early to play head to head and then invite the locals in a blind draw, not only that but at the pro expense . . .

    Hey wait, the pro expense? I don't think it has to be at the pro's expense . . Do You? That's all I'm saying.

    R_D_Carter wrote:
    Would you like to schedule one and see who in Kansas City will come out and watch? Let me know partner, I am ready to get this whole thing started.


    Why not here in K.C.? It's the Hub of the U.S. It's the same amount of flying time for everybody east or west coast. One thing though we lack that $15k - $20k tournament thingy. We have a $5k tournament though. If your serious PM me with what you need, how many people you have coming, and I'll make calls to see what I can come up with as far as hotels, rides, and/or sponsors for the Head to Head match. You give me an itemised list, and I'll see what I can check off. To coordinated that I might need 3-4 months heads up to get the word out. I'd imagine I'd get people from as far as a 6 hour drive for this, but mostly people from St. Louis and that's around 4 hours. . . . Whatever happened to BlueBerry Hill?

    R_D_Carter wrote:
    Oh and by the way, I am glad you can't leave this alone. It means there IS interest in whether it will work or not. Maybe someone, like yourself, will come out just to see who shows for it. Hopefully there will be a lot of folks, dart players like yourself, that will do the same.
    Keep the fuel burning brother.


    Yea I'd love to see this workout, as you can tell by the time I've put in this e-mail I care. If your going to put this much effort into this, and your going this far buddy, then I just think you should go this distance. The way the ADO works now where you travel getting points for a Blue Shirt is just crazy. Once you take it up and down, coast to coast to become National no.3, make the national team. That doesn't qualify you for anything. . . . ( Let me just say I was never nation no.3 I'm just using it as an example ) . . . Heck it's probably the only natinal team, that's not really a team, when does that team play together to qualify it'self as it's rightful definition? are you kidding me. The only way to qualify for internatinal events is to win one day knockout tournament, OK maybe you have the round robin to get you to the knockout, but a one day non-the-less. The best will qualify, and this allows player like yourself to qualify for these events without spending loads of cash. . . . maybe that's the best way and I'm just bitter?

    I'm with yea Brother, nothing personal.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:50 am    Post subject: Come on now.... Reply with quote

    Hey Roger,I had to pipe in since it's been awhile.Your idea sounds to me like......the dream of the WSOD.Mainly because,all players are in it for a reason.Either recognition or monetary,which is it?

    I don't see why I would pay to watch,unless I had participated and wanted to see the outcome.I think if you had a qualifier-knockout to play your "seeded boyz",that would drum more interest and we can see how good you think they are as well.Have a "$$$" bounty for a non-picked person to overcome ya'll.

    Take the $$$ from the qualifiers to play your guys,if your right you will be the final 8 on stage.Then have everyone pay to watch the finals,head to head.

    Just an idea for you......don't be surprised that if the prize was right for the challenging of US tops,the outcome may surprise ya'll again(WSOD).

    Showcasing is one thing....getting the response for long term is another.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SWEETS wrote:
    Rog , i wish we could have this HEAD TO HEAD played at our WITCH CITY OPEN here in MASS.. but we won't go there...... Good luck with getting this going.. I would check this out if it was local ..Not only would Ray play but the rest of my teammates, Tom Curtin, Bob adamson, Fred krueger and Pete morrison might be very interested as well.. Good luck Rog... .. kevin lynch


    Thanks Kevin, I think there would be a lot of folks that would do it. Its up the them to set it up though. I am trying to set one up for the Rae Chesney in January at the moment. On the lines of what everyone else is talking about, I think the tournament director should make the friday night "Pro" shoot a $100 entry fee and see how that goes. They might not get but 16 to 20 players in it, but it would be a $1600 to $2000 payout as well. Pay top 4 or top 8 and that is a pretty good pay day for someone.
    By the way, when are we going to see a tournament as good as the Witch City in Mass again? We really miss that tournament.
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