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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - handicaps
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    Does the soft tip league you play in...
    Not have a handicap.
    85%
     85%  [ 6 ]
    Has a handicap that gives points.
    14%
     14%  [ 1 ]
    Has a handicap that gives darts.
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    Total Votes : 7

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    heinsmd
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:51 am    Post subject: handicaps Reply with quote

    I am new to the forum and have been lurking for about a week and realy enjoy it. I have noticed a comon rallying point for steel tippers against playing soft tip is the handicap.
    My question is how many leagues out there actually use one? And what kind of handicap is used, giving points (a lesser skilled player starting at a lower point total) or taking darts (a more skilled player having darts taken away.)

    I play in a NDA sanctioned league. The league has three divisions a,b,c, but other than that was not handicapped in any way. Then one year the number of teams dropped so they then only had two divisions ab, and c. That first year with the combined ab group they tried a handicap (points). But after the second year the players voted it out. So if a league has a handicap why not get the players together and tell your vendor/league organised you don't want one?
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think a lot of disdain for soft tip in the US comes from the major events and there handicapping. A common pilosopy is the need to "share the wealth" spreading prize money across several divisions. I understand the reasoning behind this, if more "lesser skilled" players feels they have a chance to win something - The larger the event. These evenst still are by far the largest Darts events in the US. I'm not knocking this - however I believe top players have suffered due the little or no recognition given to them. With the advent of "The Worlds Soft tip" event and others like them it has brought Soft tip to a new level. For me ;Soft tip/Steel tip dosn't matter, I am just happy to see some kind of darts in the US "gain" in popularity.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Welcome to the forum. I cannot answer your question directly as I live in an area that is almost exclusively steel tip however, I do travel for work a fair amount and the areas that I frequent (the pacific NW and Hawaii) are Medalist strongholds and I'm pretty sure they use a 1-17 mark handicap system 1 being a complete novice that supposedly cannot hit the board and a 17 is a grand master sorcerer wizard that uses mind control on his darts and renders opponents helpless by their mere presence Rolling Eyes In my experience although admitted fairly limited is that these handicap levels are subjective at best and cheating at worst. I also find that better players dislike handicaps and bad players won’t play without them. As the dart playing population is defined fairly well by the pyramid i.e. there are tons of mediocre players and few “really” good players that the masses rule and always will. Good players are given a choice “play by our unfair rules or don’t play”.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The soft tip league I play in has no handicapping but I keep getting kicked out of the leagues!
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    tormentor wrote:
    The soft tip league I play in has no handicapping but I keep getting kicked out of the leagues!


    Go to steel tip. You will never have to worry about getting kicked out of any steel tip league.

    With that said, I have only played soft tip once, and didn't like it. I feel there is no place for handicapping in darts, soft, or steel. Since I don't play soft tip, I didn't vote, but I did want to give my opinion.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I do mainly play steel tip - but the majority in my area is soft tip so I play. I got to play. We do have a steel tip league that's a little farther away - I'm just sitting out this session -needed a break from the travel every Wednesday. Our league is the same as being in a soft tip league - everybody wines that it's not fair! I need to move somewhere where there is real leagues!!!!
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    tormentor wrote:
    I do mainly play steel tip - but the majority in my area is soft tip so I play. I got to play. We do have a steel tip league that's a little farther away - I'm just sitting out this session -needed a break from the travel every Wednesday. Our league is the same as being in a soft tip league - everybody wines that it's not fair! I need to move somewhere where there is real leagues!!!!


    Wow, it sounds like you play in the MMDL Laughing Laughing Laughing I find no matter where you play, you are bound to find people who complain about something. That's what's so sad about this game.

    As for soft tip, I have nothing against it. I just personally don't like it. Especially if it's a handicap league. It's to easy to sandbag, until playoff time. Then miraculously, the player is throwing like a pro. Not for me.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I would love to be playing up there with you guys. There's only a handful of decent players here. Most the players here (and I'm sure it's in alot of places)play just to get out. They like to go out to drink and throw some darts - I'm a dart player - it's my hobby so I work on it constantly. Of course I like to throw back a few too !!!!
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    tormentor wrote:
    Our league is the same as being in a soft tip league - everybody wines that it's not fair!




    The "it's not fair" mentality just drives me nuts. It it the root of so many evils in this world. The current religion of jealousy and envy will be the end of us. "It's not FAIR he is better at darts than I am........so I want to be given an advantage so I can still beat him" whaaaaaaaaa....."It's not FAIR he has more money than me.....so I want the government to take it away from him and give it to me........"whaaaaaaaa .... Life is not FAIR. Never has been. Never will be. People need to put on their big boy pants grow a pair and try harder. Get better.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Couldn't agree more! I used to get my butt whipped all the time in this game and never once complained - just worked at getting better. Your right our whole society is getting like that ! It's real bad here in Georgia!!!
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    tormentor wrote:
    It's real bad here in Georgia!!!

    My friend .........."It's real bad EVERYWHERE!!!!" Laughing Laughing The entitlement mentality is so pervasive I really have my doubts we can recover from it. It will get a lot worse before it gets better I'm afraid. Viva la revolution!!!!!
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    PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    tormentor wrote:
    It's real bad here in Georgia!!!

    My friend .........."It's real bad EVERYWHERE!!!!" Laughing Laughing The entitlement mentality is so pervasive I really have my doubts we can recover from it. It will get a lot worse before it gets better I'm afraid. Viva la revolution!!!!!
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    I couldn't agree more, Larry.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The softtip league I played in (a few years ago) handicapped, but it was a little different. instead of taking away darts or lowering the starting point, it gave you darts. If you were the lower ranked player you would get extra darts at the start of the game. For example, I was a 2 (you can be a 1-10, 1 being highest, 10 being lowest), and if I were playing a 5, and we are playing cricket; the 5 player would get 3 darts for score after throwing the cork.

    I've seen other leagues that let the player just walk up and place the darts where they want or give them automatic points. This way they still had to throw for it. It gives them an advantage but they still could miss.

    It's not perfect. Like anything else sandbagging is an issue. But without the handicapping a lot of the lesser players wouldn't play. In fact, without the handicap we wouldn't have been able to make a league. We would've only had about 4-6 players.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Squiggle wrote:
    But without the handicapping a lot of the lesser players wouldn't play. In fact, without the handicap we wouldn't have been able to make a league. We would've only had about 4-6 players.


    What a sad indictment of people character. What a shame. People keep asking “why is the game struggling”. Why 20 years ago you had hundreds and hundreds of entries in men's singles events at tournaments such as the Witch City and now we struggle to fill brackets when the PDC was throwing HUGE money at the game in this country. It is about character or lack of it. We certainly are not going to solve anything pissing and moaning about it online but........ It is bigger than all of us. We see our new National character on display with the OWS crowd. The “why should HE have more than ME?” crowd. The idea that hard work and perseverance pays dividends in life and even darts is lost on a growing number of people. They would rather just have things handed to them…… SO much easier than putting in the effort. Sport as a parable of life is never truer than it is today. I personally find it very sad.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles while I agree with most of what your saying. I feel the reason in the US/North America handicapping has thrived is not blaming the masses/generation. I believe if you ask yourself; whats in it if I devote my time in throwing darts in North America- personal ackompilishment??? ... With costs in travel and lack of sponsorship darts is nothing more than a hobby. Events/Leagues are simply designed to attract head count (handicaping is the end to this means).
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I hope nobody takes offense at my comments.

    My biggest problem with handicapping is that if as a lesser player, I beat a superior player, I wouldn't feel like I actually won anything legitimately. If I'm a top player and lose to a lesser player, sure as heck I wouldn't believe that they actually beat me. I play in the top division and hold my own, but I'm by no means one of the best, yet I've beaten plenty of "name" players and sponsored players with no handicap needed and feel like I "earned it".

    Like Larry, I'm far from being a money maker at this sport, yet I would go nowhere near a system that artificially assists my win percentage simply to boost my self esteem. I just love to compete and given the chance to earn a win on my own merit. This is also why I don't understand people who need to "cheat" to win. I'm not saying handicapping is essentially cheating, but they both give me the same negative feeling of "reward for no effort".

    IMO, the risk of losing is the tradeoff that is given for being granted the opportunity to compete to win. If you can't accept that tradeoff, then competition isn't really for you. It is the risk of losing that motivates me, so if I lessened that risk through handicapping, I also lessen my motivation to improve.

    On the practical side, my sense of right says let's be ok with fewer players who want to win without anyone's help and leave the handicapping leagues for the others. But I know that economically, that is a slippery slope and in many places the numbers don't exist to support both.

    Like Larry, I agree that society's majority has moved to the group that wants to lessen the risks of EVERYTHING in life and to me that's like bleaching the color out of a van gogh.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Crash336 wrote:
    Shannonmiles while I agree with most of what your saying. I feel the reason in the US/North America handicapping has thrived is not blaming the masses/generation. I believe if you ask yourself; whats in it if I devote my time in throwing darts in North America- personal ackompilishment??? ... With costs in travel and lack of sponsorship darts is nothing more than a hobby. Events/Leagues are simply designed to attract head count (handicaping is the end to this means).


    I'm having a little difficulty following post but I will try to answer the best I can to what I think you are saying/asking. If I go off the rails please feel free to correct me.

    1. If it’s not generational what is it? I remember back when I started the whole idea was to challenge myself. To walk into a bar and figure out who the best guy in the joint was and figure out how I was going to be able to play him. I know I was not the only one because a lot of the time you had to wait your turn to get a game off the "good" guy. I know I'm not the only one. Every bio of a good player has similar stories. I started in A division the 1st time I ever played league darts and never looked back.

    2. My goal (nor should anyone else with three working brain cells) was ever to make a million bucks playing this game. I agree with you it is a hobby. Nothing stopping anyone from getting really good at their hobby is there?.....Other than desire? What's in in for me? Pride.......Satisfaction...... Ego ..... I disagree that the purpose of leagues is for simple head count. Soft tip you unfortunately have a point but not the one I THINK you were trying to make. For steel the purpose of a league in my opinion was to be able to get like minded people together to have organized COMPETITION . To challenge your mettle against others. In soft tip the whole idea has been prostituted to get "numbers" to get as many coin dropping drones as possible. That’s why the rules of handicapping favor the beginner and punish the better players. They don't care about competition.... they care about coin drop and the current generation feeds off of it. they love the easy ...... "hey look I'm COMPETITIVE" when in reality they have not put in the effort to actually be so. I've have people I was giving 10 marks and the start too that won.... that ran around the bar like they won the lottery. It was disgusting. What were they celebrating? They didn’t win in any real sense of the word. however in this backwards everything has to be FAIR world they in their own minds really thought they won something. When someone beats me straight up (and it happens often) they get something very important in my opinion from me.....my respect at the fact that I had been bettered. I am given something too at that moment..... the motivation to be BETTER the next time.

    3. We disagree on the “head count” thing. Is it nice to have lots of players? Yes of course it is. Is it worth prostituting WHY you play the game in the first place for? Absolutely not.
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    Last edited by Shannonmiles on Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GT wrote:
    I hope nobody takes offense at my comments.

    My biggest problem with handicapping is that if as a lesser player, I beat a superior player, I wouldn't feel like I actually won anything legitimately. If I'm a top player and lose to a lesser player, sure as heck I wouldn't believe that they actually beat me. I play in the top division and hold my own, but I'm by no means one of the best, yet I've beaten plenty of "name" players and sponsored players with no handicap needed and feel like I "earned it".

    Like Larry, I'm far from being a money maker at this sport, yet I would go nowhere near a system that artificially assists my win percentage simply to boost my self esteem. I just love to compete and given the chance to earn a win on my own merit. This is also why I don't understand people who need to "cheat" to win. I'm not saying handicapping is essentially cheating, but they both give me the same negative feeling of "reward for no effort".

    IMO, the risk of losing is the tradeoff that is given for being granted the opportunity to compete to win. If you can't accept that tradeoff, then competition isn't really for you. It is the risk of losing that motivates me, so if I lessened that risk through handicapping, I also lessen my motivation to improve.

    On the practical side, my sense of right says let's be ok with fewer players who want to win without anyone's help and leave the handicapping leagues for the others. But I know that economically, that is a slippery slope and in many places the numbers don't exist to support both.

    Like Larry, I agree that society's majority has moved to the group that wants to lessen the risks of EVERYTHING in life and to me that's like bleaching the color out of a van gogh.


    LOL Greg you type faster than I do!!!!!!! but We certainly were on the same wavelength Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'm the one who may be off the rails, In my mind I look at some of the younger players (like my son) in my area (Raleigh). A post Robot made not long back also comes to mind. Robbie has been a stand out in the area for a long time. But what's in it for him, no sponsor, no money in tornament. Now obviously he is self motivated (to achieve the level he has obtained) - but the sport needs more.. and players like him deserve more from a sport.

    I attempted to point out why handicapping works (if your in it for the numbers) and lets face it - have to finance a league/tournment

    But to grow the sport, I prefer a Dartlive or Major Darts league no handicap approach.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    So I may be confused, It sounds like some people are confusing handicapping and bracketing.

    Bracketing is dividing the entire playing pool into equal skill levels and having them play together. Examples: Minor league baseball A, AA, AAA Collage sports Division I II III.

    Handicapping is taking all players and having them play with each other but giving those with lesser skills an advantage over a more skilled player.

    I can understand being against handicapping, but have trouble with complaints about bracketing. If your complaint is then you don't play the best then ask to be put in a higher bracket I have never seen or heard a request to get bumped up a bracket turned down. These same people should not be worried about sandbagging because they want to play against the best players anyway.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I believe this thread is entirely about handicapping and not bracketing? That's what I've been discussing anyway. Bracketing and sandbaggng is an entirely different argument (see the MMDL forum, almost any thread more than 9 pages). Shocked

    Handicapping in many regions seems born of necessity mostly where there are scarce numbers of players at similar skill levels in order to get acceptable levels of participation. (And the coin drop money factor mentioned prior).

    If there was no better local alternative and I still hunger for the competition I assume I would simply concede and play in a handicap system. I guess I am just lucky I live in a giant thriving steel tip jungle (we have over 20 steel tip leagues in MA of various sizes, none are handicapped to my knowledge).

    But I think a consistent sentiment expressed here is that it should not be a desirable situation, but one you adopt when options are severely limited, for the many reasons expressed in how the practice diminishes the foundational basis of competition.

    I think the focus of this handicapping communication gap is a matter of scale. Those of us who live in or near the World's Largest Steel Tip League don't have the experience of other regions that struggle to find players and are dominated by soft tip.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I used to play in a soft tip league where there was a handicap. Keep in mind this is just my opinion, but as the top player in the league it felt like I was being penalized for practicing countless hours every day, day in day out.

    The better I got the more marks they would get, or the less points they would start at in 501.

    I believe in having a couple different divisions at most. There really shouldn't be a need for an A, B, C & D league. Darts isn't an activity where you play the same all the time. Depending on what night it is my average can fluctuate quite massively. Up to 20 points or better.

    Another thing about handicapping that I haven't seen mentioned is the sandbaggers. In my area people are known to play poor in league just so they can go to the State Championships with a low average and play in a low division. It's amazing how people I know that carry a 2.2 mpr average in cricket can somehow manage to shoot 4.5+ mpr all day long at the State's. Rolling Eyes

    Wrapping things up.... handicaps blow. No incentive to get better for some.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Crash336 wrote:
    I'm the one who may be off the rails, In my mind I look at some of the younger players (like my son) in my area (Raleigh). A post Robot made not long back also comes to mind. Robbie has been a stand out in the area for a long time. But what's in it for him, no sponsor, no money in tornament. Now obviously he is self motivated (to achieve the level he has obtained) - but the sport needs more.. and players like him deserve more from a sport.

    I attempted to point out why handicapping works (if your in it for the numbers) and lets face it - have to finance a league/tournment

    But to grow the sport, I prefer a Dartlive or Major Darts league no handicap approach.


    First and foremost the following response is not in response to anything you or anyone else has said in this thread or others.

    I DO NOT think ALL young people or even young dart players should be lumped into the category of ne'er-do-well. I know Robbie quite well and he accounts for himself well in all circumstances. Both my sons are accomplished dart players and not bad kids if I must say so myself. When I speak of the younger generation negatively it is by stereotyping. Before anyone starts jumping up and down pounding their fist about the "injustice" of stereotyping let me just say stereotyping does not occur in a vacuum. I have seen little to dissuade me from the overall opinion that my generation and the generation before mine has OVERALL did a pretty piss poor job raising children. We collectively have raised the most demanding.... least productive.... most entitled....... bunch of do nothings in history. And.... that folks is why dart leagues are going the way of the Dodo. Somehow we have parented out their fighting spirit. The everyone get a trophy everyone get a turn a bat regardless of number of outs.......has had a poisonous effect on the youth of this country. On the base I grew up on as a kid we must have had 30 youth football teams of various weight classes. EVERYONE PLAYED! Same with baseball. Today I don't even think they have a single team. There are more submarines stationed there today then there were in 1978. More kids too! More schools....etc etc. You could not swing a dead cat and not hit a kid playing touch football in the summer time in 78. Everything was competition. Where are the kids now? Where are the young people joining dart leagues? They have to be enticed with "don't worry kid you will have a chance right off the bat.....we will make sure of it" or they won't play....

    ....... oh never mind....... I should get on meds.... the rantings of a darts curmudgeon are worthless.....back to your regularly scheduled program REMAIN CALM.....ALL IS WELL......REMAIN CALM......ALL IS WELL. Laughing I can still see in my minds eye Keven Bacon's character in Animal House .... ALL IS WELL Laughing Cheers and good night.
    _________________
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    They say that Nero fiddled while Rome burned

    Screws fall out all of the time, the world is an imperfect place. John Bender
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    Crash336
    Dart Staff Sergeant
    Dart Staff Sergeant


    Joined: Mar 23, 2009
    Posts: 396

    PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    It's not that I don't want to post after a post like that (to acknowlege what you posted) I just don't know what to say, a first for me.
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    Shannonmiles
    Go Navy Darter
    Go Navy Darter


    Joined: Aug 23, 2006
    Posts: 2348
    Location: North Dartmouth MA USA

    PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Crash336 wrote:
    It's not that I don't want to post after a post like that (to acknowlege what you posted) I just don't know what to say, a first for me.
    Laughing Laughing

    Just blathering. Ignore them. I'm a frustrated old beyond my years fool. I see the country circling the drain on many levels and it pisses me off. I see parallels where they probably don't exist. I see handicapping as socialism. I really do. I am so tired of people with their hands out to take what others worked hard to produce. I was accused in an old thread of having the "same old routine” of being a "broken record" and a “nabob of negativity" who had “nothing positive to contribute" you know what......... guilty as charged. I don't see a solution but I sure as hells see what "I" think is the problem. If people don't want to read what I have to say....... that solution is simple. Don't read it. It's not like I change my user name to trick people into reading the ranting of the "nabob of negativity"...... If I piss people off and they still see a post with my DNA on it and chose to read it anyway they obviously WANT to be pissed off and I am all too happy to oblige them. Laughing

    P.S. I am STILL glad that Ted Kennedy is dead. Laughing Laughing Very Happy
    _________________
    We are the dance band on the Titanic............

    They say that Nero fiddled while Rome burned

    Screws fall out all of the time, the world is an imperfect place. John Bender
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