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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - BlackHorse out of the Corral
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    BlackHorse out of the Corral
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    BlackHorse
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject: BlackHorse out of the Corral Reply with quote

    Yeah, I'm known for some wild thinking. But some good has come of it here and there. Not tons, but some. Some of my best stuff has to be put thru as others' ideas for it to be accepted, lol.

    Having run some gauntlets this past weekend, I feel frisky again and ready to toss my mane and caution to the wind.

    I will do you all a favour though and make sure you understand I am not proposing this to be done anywhere. This is one of the things I would do if I won a big lottery. If you don't like the idea, which most of you won't, laugh, call me ridiculous to yourself, and move on. I have proposed this in the past here.

    If you think it's cool, and if you realize that it was in fact tried in days long past by the Pros so it wasn't my idea first anyway, and you see some fun in it, contribute your thoughts.

    The BlackHorse (I just won the Lottery) Equal Darts Tournament!

    The thing that bugs me is - players not having the same number of darts each game. The Start, the Throw, Having the Darts, Starting First. In a game where the pros are winning with five or less rounds quite often, giving up a whole round is a huge... dare I say it? .. handicap!

    How fair can it be to have a head start of this magnitude? Sure the other guy gets it next leg, but it still feels wrong.

    I envision much more drama at the end of many games, when one player has checked out and, if he's in range, the other has a chance to tie. Or what about even win?? Let's say we are playing number of darts, not rounds, is the determinant. Hay, I'm the one who won the Lottery, remember?! Very Happy

    Let's say Chitown has 70 left and is at the line, and his opponent DW is on 56. Chi knows DW is very capable of checking out in two. Chi isn't comfortable with taking three darts and possibly losing, he goes for broke and tries S20, DB rather than a Trip + Double combo. He has a hard choice to make, lots of terrific second-guessing opportunities for the fans! Twisted Evil Laughing

    Lots of ties probably? Yup, I think so too. Well, in the pros anyway. I remember chess scoring when there were lots of Draws and the match winner might only actually win a game or two out of twenty, making up the rest of the points needed on Draws. I don't like that much to be honest, but I do love the thought of many games having added excitement, and the players never having to worry about being three darts down before they even start.

    Maybe Chi is on 95 and DW is on 141. Maybe Chi is willing to risk assuming he will finish in two rounds, and DW won't... maybe then DW pulls a Keith Deller and wins his next time at the oche.

    I would really like to see how it would be played, by different people. The amount of discussion that could be had would be substantially more than there is now, and perhaps Sid could quit saying the same tired phrases over and over like "middle of the diddle", which makes no sense anyway when the target was a Double. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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    chunky
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As one of the few who has played "equal darts" competitively, I can assure you that it is not everything that you envisage it to be. Far from creating more excitement, it can be very anti-climactic.

    Taking out out 161 when your opponent is sitting on 32 can be an exhilarating experience in normal darts. Doing so in "equal darts" - when you've started the leg - isn't. Knowing that whatever you do, you opponent can still easily beat you, or at least tie, is not a good feeling.

    It can be fun to play occasionally, but I'm sure that you won't find one player who has played it (at the PDC UK Masters) who is a fan.

    Incidentally, you are misconstruing the term "middle for diddle". The term is used with regard to corking, which makes sense when you think about it.

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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    chunky wrote:

    Incidentally, you are misconstruing the term "middle for diddle". The term is used with regard to corking, which makes sense when you think about it.

    Steve


    Your example makes perfect sense, Chunky, Sid Waddell's doesn't. He says it when a player hits the center of an outside ring double.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'd still like to see one tournament done like that, Chunky. Perhaps you are correct that I wouldn't want another though.....
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Quote:
    The thing that bugs me is - players not having the same number of darts each game. The Start, the Throw, Having the Darts, Starting First.


    I have heard people mention this before. You mention not only having the same number of darts but also starting first. You then go on to talk about the3 out and give several scenarios. To make your game fully equal all players should just play on differentm boards all at the same time. 10 legs or whatever and the person who threw the least amount of darts wins. That sounds like fun - not. If it is unfair that the person starting first can throw 9 darts and win before the second player has a chance to tie then shouldn't all the players in the tournament have to throw a 9 darter as well or be down one? Why only the person who played the 9 dart thrower. We could get into the ridiculous here. Its like liberals in school wanting all the kids to win, lets make everthing equal or handicapped so all are as good as the next. But, all are not as good as the next.

    Perhaps it is "luck" that you unfortunatly drew the guy who starts the game and finishes it, hey you get a chance the next game to do the same. What you are talking about it seems to me is when no one breaks the other persons throw so the person who started the match wins. Easy fix, instead of equal darts just make it that you have to win by two games. Equal darts is "unfair" if only one player has to match another and not all at the same time. "luck" of the draw and the bracket you fall into is "unfair".

    No way to make everything equal. Just my thoughts.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Good point, Fundy.

    Our local tournaments play round robins first, everyone playing everyone in their bracket. That's better, but even so you are still only playing a portion of the shooters in the tourney.

    As I think of ideas, one problem with comparing darts to other sports is that there is no defence in darts. In other sports, the defence can affect the 'starter'. That's why I feel the start is unfair, and the higher the skill level, the higher the handicap of going second.

    Alternating starts is a pretty good solution. I would just like to see how the Equal Darts would play out.... don't worry tho, I'll never win the lottery.

    I will address the society approach cuz it keeps coming up - this isn't the same as handing everyone a win - it really isn't a level playing field when equal number of turns isn't given. Again, alternating the start will have to do.

    You are correct, we cannot make everything equal within normal human and time constraints.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    While the concept of equal darts seems interesting, I would think it would reduce the level of pressure and stress on the player who has the opportunity to match his opponents "winning finish." I've hit some of my best finishes by knowing that "if I don't hit the out now, I won't get another shot."
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    While the concept of equal darts seems interesting, I would think it would reduce the level of pressure and stress on the player who has the opportunity to match his opponents "winning finish." I've hit some of my best finishes by knowing that "if I don't hit the out now, I won't get another shot."


    Strange thing is, it actually seems to add stress! Or at least redirect it, anyway. Because it is something we are not used to, it puts us in situations we're not used to.

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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    chunky wrote:
    Dart_talker wrote:
    While the concept of equal darts seems interesting, I would think it would reduce the level of pressure and stress on the player who has the opportunity to match his opponents "winning finish." I've hit some of my best finishes by knowing that "if I don't hit the out now, I won't get another shot."


    Strange thing is, it actually seems to add stress! Or at least redirect it, anyway. Because it is something we are not used to, it puts us in situations we're not used to.

    Steve


    Point taken, unfamiliarity can be very stressful.
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Alternating starts really solves this problem and is why I prefer that format to diddling each leg.
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject: 50 out Reply with quote

    I'm running with this kind of tournament, and I am curious about strategy.

    Lets say you throw second. Opponent on 40. You hit something big to leave you one dart on 50. Do you throw the DB for the win or do you fear the 25 that would leave you 2 more dart out?

    Blackhorse, what are your feelings on this? Are the odds of winning great enough or do you play it safer....?
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    PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Erik wrote:
    Alternating starts really solves this problem and is why I prefer that format to diddling each leg.


    That's the point, Erik, it doesn't solve the problem at all. It simply alternates who has the unfair advantage that never should be given. The main difference between darts and most other sports is that there is no defence in darts. Even in a Sudden Death NFL game, the defence has the chance to stop the coin-toss-winning offence, or even take the ball away.

    Each leg, each game, should be fair - in this out-of-the-corral thinking anyway. I cannot get past the thought that in a game where 12-15 darts will win at the pro level, you are therefore being penalized 20-33% of your skill level by starting behind.

    Here's a way to look at it that should shake you guys up - in each leg, the second thrower is being HANDICAPPED!! Twisted Evil

    And I thought you guys were all about a level playing field.... Laughing
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    PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: 50 out Reply with quote

    overlord wrote:
    I'm running with this kind of tournament, and I am curious about strategy.

    Lets say you throw second. Opponent on 40. You hit something big to leave you one dart on 50. Do you throw the DB for the win or do you fear the 25 that would leave you 2 more dart out?

    Blackhorse, what are your feelings on this? Are the odds of winning great enough or do you play it safer....?


    You have one dart to win the game, and your opponent has three darts at Tops to win if you don't. Sounds to me like you have to go for the win, you very well won't have the chance to use your next three.

    Depends upon your opponent of course, but when they are on a single dart out, I would say you have to take your shot. If they don't hit it, you have three darts with 25 left perhaps, and that's still a good situation.

    And maybe start practicing DBs. Smile
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    *laugh* (Ridiculous!)

    Last edited by CraigB on Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    *laugh* (Rediculous!)


    It can't be "Rediculous" if the pros actually tried it at times, which they have.

    It can't be called "Rediculous" by someone who can't even spell the word. Razz

    If you went to another sport and said, "We'll play but each time we do, one side will have a 20-33% advantage in playing time over the other", I think they would be the ones to call that "Rediculous".
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Rolling Eyes
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    Rolling Eyes


    Oh, you're right! Why didn't I think of that, I'm so silly.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Silly is one word for it.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Lewis playing Wade.

    Wade starts.

    After a few rounds, Wade has 161 left, Lewis has 40.

    Wade checks out in three.

    Lewis plays on, for the sake of this scenario, and hits Tops in his first dart.

    Wade finishes in 15, Lewis in 13.

    Who was the better player in that leg?

    (Note: I didn't ask who won in today's usual format)
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Posts like "Rediculous", Rolling Eyes and "Silly is one word for it" are the ones that piss people off, shut down discussions and make readers very reluctant to post.

    Once again I will say, if you don't have anything constructive to say, move on. If you don't like the subject, move on. If you only have enough sense to be dismissive or insulting or condescending, move on. No one needs to read your useless post, you aren't being clever, you aren't being helpful.

    If there are reasons why the topic won't work, state them if you are interested in pursuing it. If you aren't, move on. Posts like those won't be missed.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I just laid out our basic scenario to a National Softball Champion, explaining it simply and without bias. He found the whole idea preposterous. He considered the alternating start no justification for each individual leg being unfairly played.

    As I've said before, other sports would look at this format and consider it uneven.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    and people with too much time on there hands and a penchant for the stupid idea with a thin skin don't help much either. You put ideas out there and people comment on them........ if you are not willing to except that everyone will not agree with them them don't bother. It's a forum with differing opinions..... when you don't get the answer you like you get mad. Equal darts seems like a stupid idea to me. It is something I have no interest in. It failed when tried at the professional level. Chunky told you why. He told you that other pros didn't like it. Hey dude if you want to play it..... knock yourself out. The majority of players will not except it. Get out and get some air......please do everyone a favor.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You don't think it would appeal to anyone, fine. Why not?

    Again, don't just be insulting and make comments, unfounded comments, about me personally.

    It can't have been a stupid idea if the pros did try it.

    I don't mind people disagreeing with me; I put out ideas sometimes to get discussion going, sometimes it leads to cool places. But I do mind mindless answers like rolling eyes.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    You don't think it would appeal to anyone, fine. Why not?

    Again, don't just be insulting and make comments, unfounded comments, about me personally.

    It can't have been a stupid idea if the pros did try it.

    I don't mind people disagreeing with me; I put out ideas sometimes to get discussion going, sometimes it leads to cool places. But I do mind mindless answers like rolling eyes.


    Why not? Because…. it takes the heart out of the game that’s why. The break of throw is thrilling. The break back equally so. The alternating start is good enough to level the odds. Leave well enough alone already.

    If you want to take people disagreeing with you personally that’s your problem. You have been doing it for years so I don't see why you would stop now.

    Yes it is a stupid idea. Yes the Pro’s TRIED it. It was stupid so they didn’t do it again. That is the definition of a stupid idea. Hey …..I wonder what it would be like if I put my hand on a hot stove? Holy crap that hurt! I guess I should not do that again. Bad idea=tried only one time.

    Rolling Eyes sorry if that offends you. It is what I REALLY do when I read your posts. I don’t Laughing .....or Razz ......or Very Happy ..... or Smile sometimes I am.... Shocked
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I've had a coupla ideas that people liked, a few stories people enjoyed, once in a while it happens. Smile
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