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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Solutions "How to grow the sport?"
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    Solutions "How to grow the sport?"
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    habanerojooz
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    The game SHOULD be played "straight up".........the money SHOULD be at the top of the game not the bottom. However, this is in our current society model a fantasy. Everyone wants "their FAIR share".
    I agree. I've echoed similar sentiments in my previous posts.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    That’s why soft tip "C" flight has more money in it than the next two flights above it COMBINED. There is no drive to move up.

    Agreed. And without proper governance and controls from the soft tip organizing bodies which rule those domains, players get away with it too. For both the organizers and the players....it boils down to money and greed. But why is soft tip being brought up? I'm talking exclusively about the steel tip side of the game.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    If people think that limiting the payouts to the top divisions in steel tip will encourage people to show to fight it out for plaques in the lower divisions (while funding these great upper division payouts) they are kidding themselves Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Wink .

    I don't see it that way.

    The reason that more lower division steel tip players aren't participating in tournaments isn't because there is not enough money to 'win'. Quite the contrary. The most common reason that I hear relates to that individual not wanting to 'spend' money on a competition where they think they have very little chance to succeed.

    Ask your normal steel tip league player why they didn't come out to play in the big local tournament. Or if they did play, ask why they chose to play only a few select events and skip the singles events. And if they tell you that they didn't play because money is tight, tell them that a $20 entry fee into the singles event would have given them the opportunity to win 25x that amount (i.e. $500) and see where that conversation takes you.

    We agree that the top of the game should have more money allocated to it. But in the absence of sponsors, the increased payouts to the upper divisions has to come from somewhere. In my proposed new structure, using some of the entry fees from the other divisions is only an operational reality for a tournament director. Obviously, it's not something you publicize and emphasize.

    Similarly, in today's steel tournament structure, you don't tell the players that 80% of them are going to be losers in order to payoff the 20% who finish in the money. Although it is a reality, that is not something you talk about nor remind people of.

    No, I don't believe that funding the upper levels with higher cash payouts is an enticement which will bring out lower level players.

    What I do believe is that a many lower level players would 'spend' money to participate in tournaments if they could compete at a level that is commensurate to their abilities.

    I also feel that a minority of these same players will catch the tournament 'bug' and push themselves to achieve higher goals and progressively move up in the divisions.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    The steel tip game has just passed this generation by....... it’s just too hard to be good at it for them to bother. Why bother when you can play soft tip and compete on a level playing field from the very beginning with EVERYONE else and for the same money or better. Rolling Eyes Laughing


    I'm not talking about drawing soft tip people into the steel tip tournaments. I'm talking about drawing more steel tip people in to the steel tip tournaments.

    I enjoy an adult debate. I hope that you have no hard feelings towards my comments. Very Happy
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I love the debate! There is a reason I've been wasting my time on this site for 5 years! No worries!!!!!!
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    cannibal wrote:
    Some very good posts and suggestions. The issue surrounding tournament structure I would like to address in another thread at another time.

    My bad for spending so much time on tournament structure. I do not play in leagues but I have comments about what is said below.

    cannibal wrote:
    Continuing on the focus of local/league approaches to growing the game, my position is one that darts is still a grassroots/small/fringe sport and that growing at the local level first is crucial in taking darts to the next level of increased participation, raising the standard of play, and bring more money into the game.

    Agreed. The number of new players entering the game has been dwindling for many years. At this same time, veteran players dropping out of the game makes it even worse. Why are veteran players losing their passion for the game? Why can't we attract new players and/or younger players? Why is the average age of player in leagues and tournaments not lower?

    cannibal wrote:
    Many have mentioned Youth as being a factor for growing the sport. I agree it is, QCEDL does nothing for youth. In the past they have run youth leagues but for many reasons this has gone by the way side. Unfortunately I have no experience and no concrete ideas in this area.

    For awhile, volunteers from our Houston league held an afterschool event at a local junior high. They tought the basics of the game, throwing mechanics, sportsmanship, gave away boards, supplies, etc. There was also a competition which qualified several of the youths to have their entry fees paid for the Houston Bluebonnet Open tournament..which introduced them to tournament play and exposed them to what it's like to be in a major tournament. Several of the youths got that experience playing in the Bluebonnet Open and they enjoyed it. But for whatever reason, the participation in this afterschool program began to decline over time and the program was discontinued.

    cannibal wrote:
    From my observations there is a lack of information on QCEDL activities. The league relies on its website and team captians to pass along information to shooters and bars.

    We have this same thing going on here in Houston and it is not effective for the same reasons that you mention below.

    cannibal wrote:
    Due to the situation that most are just out for the one league night there is no incentive for them to inform their teams of the shoots, LOD's, etc...Very few league members check the website and if they do they seem to just check standings. The league website is badly in need of a redesign to fit the needs of the league.

    Ditto

    cannibal wrote:
    What is needed to rectify this situation is someone on the board to take responsibility of PR/Promotions and a cmmtte. This position would be responsible for ensuring shoots and events are advertised well in advance in flyers, local papers, websites. In addition better information for prospective sponsors should be available, for e.g. a packet explaining benefits of having a dart team, revenue projections for league nights as well as hosting a shoot. Explain what is required by a sponsor, for e.g. quidlines for space, board, lighting, etc...

    We have several of these responsibilities nestled within positions that exist in our league's board of directors. Trouble is, the job isn't getting done.

    cannibal wrote:
    There is a lack of pushing the talented upcoming shooters into singles competitions. This is partly due to the above, but it also is rooted in the rules of the league. Shooters can not participate in team play and singles league, you can only do one or the other. Singles league is on Thursday same night as team play. The league could easily adopt a structure used by PDSL, this could result in more sponsors, more darts, more opportunity across the city, as well as raise the standard of play.

    I like this idea a lot. Our league does not have a singles league and I think that it should. League play is inherently team oriented play and this does not prepare people for tournament play. To progress beyond league play and into tournament play, one must become a better singles player. While becoming a better singles player helps them whenever they enter tournaments, I believe that their league play also benefits. Being a strong singles player can be leveraged into more league wins for your team in singles, doubles, and the team game. Becoming a better singles player also increases a player's confidence and this is often leads to higher goals and aspirations in the game.

    cannibal wrote:
    Single shoot formats are too short, a longer format of play needs to be instituted, or more matches with a shorter format could create same incentives. I believe this is a crucial factor into raising the standard of play. It creates incentive for the less talented shooters to come out and have a go if they have the opportunity to throw more darts and its what they need to improve. This shooters don't mind playing the best, they just want more than 2 legs and then go home. It gives the better shooters incentive as well because they face better probability of beating less talented shooters. Better for sponsors as individuals spend more time at bar. Result is more money from sponsors, more money from increased entries.

    Our best of 3 structure is a crap shoot. This short format is not a good indicator of the overall best player. It is also not effective for growing and nurturing US players for the international world stage. We should take a hint from the UK and European tournaments where longer formats are the norm.

    cannibal wrote:
    Given the population movement out of philadelphia, it would make sense for the league to establish leagues in the suburbs or at least attempt to expand into non traditional darting areas of the city. There are a lof of obstacles to this one as steel tip darts are vitrually non existent in the burbs. Moving into other areas of the city has its problems as well partly due to shooters desire not to travel far to play. In 4 years of playing the furtherst I have had to travel from my house is about 15 minutes of driving. Darts has also traditionally been the domain of white males which has limited it to specific geographical locations of the city. I think that growing the sport should include reaching beyond this demographic.


    The Houston league has expanded into other parts of the city (i.e. burbs). It worked for awhile but for different reasons, it died off or it is slowly declining.

    Regarding the demographics, I agree with what is said.

    This is not a comment that soft tip is in any way better or worse than steel, but here in Houston, the soft tip demographic is more diverse than it is in steel. Locally, soft tip has numerous males and females, all age levels (especially more 20-somethings), work backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, etc.

    All of this typing has made me hungry. It's time to find an Asian buffet where we can sit and chow down for 4 hours or more without getting yelled at. I know a few people that would likely join me, but I won't mention who they are. Very Happy Wink
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    PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As of today there have been 950+ views of this thread and 52 reponses.
    Rolling Eyes
    Has anyone seen something from a League leader, any league, saying something about making adjustments to the way they, or volunteers from their organization, run tournaments? Or their league?
    Confused
    Has anyone in a leadership position of any organization joined in the conversation voicing interest in this subject?
    Evil or Very Mad
    Has anyone seen anything from anyone in leadership of the ADO?
    Crying or Very sad
    I'm afraid that without interest from this level of person all our ernest dialog becomes 'over the back fence' chatter.
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    PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cost of travel,(gas,flights,hotel,lack of enough vacation time) all these factor into the future of our sport...we will never be able to overcome the size of our country.Regional tournaments are the best we can hope for.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    ...Has anyone in a leadership position of any organization joined in the conversation voicing interest in this subject?
    Evil or Very Mad
    Has anyone seen anything from anyone in leadership of the ADO?
    Crying or Very sad
    I'm afraid that without interest from this level of person all our ernest dialog becomes 'over the back fence' chatter.


    George you know the people at the top much better than I do.
    The silence is deafening from the leadership. I have a feeling that some are reading, I know Steve Brown has been on here, I am fairly confident he knows this discussion is going on. Their is a section of these forums dedicated to the ADO, in the last 2 months there has been 4 posts all from Dart Talker for region 2-2. You can infer from that what you will.

    Brian Jackson from MLD of course is contributing to the discussion as is Donny Joe. As far as leadership of leagues I have not a clue, I am pretty sure the leadership of my league QCEDL is not reading this.

    My thinking is the only thing I can do is put it out there here and when I talk to people, and then I go back to trying to keep things going with darts at my local pub.
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    cannibal wrote:
    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    ...Has anyone in a leadership position of any organization joined in the conversation voicing interest in this subject?
    Evil or Very Mad
    Has anyone seen anything from anyone in leadership of the ADO?
    Crying or Very sad
    I'm afraid that without interest from this level of person all our ernest dialog becomes 'over the back fence' chatter.


    George you know the people at the top much better than I do.
    The silence is deafening from the leadership. I have a feeling that some are reading, I know Steve Brown has been on here, I am fairly confident he knows this discussion is going on. Their is a section of these forums dedicated to the ADO, in the last 2 months there has been 4 posts all from Dart Talker for region 2-2. You can infer from that what you will.

    Brian Jackson from MLD of course is contributing to the discussion as is Donny Joe. As far as leadership of leagues I have not a clue, I am pretty sure the leadership of my league QCEDL is not reading this.

    My thinking is the only thing I can do is put it out there here and when I talk to people, and then I go back to trying to keep things going with darts at my local pub.

    Yeah, Ted, it's like when Frank Rizzo was mayor and someone asked why the police cars were made blue instead of red - he said: you want red police cars, you be mayor.

    Question for everyone reading this.
    How long have the leaders of your league been the leaders of your league? I suspect it is just more politics in the sense that we get what we deserve when there is no one willing to step up and do the work.
    My recommendation for most under appreciated people in darts: The people who do all the scheduling.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    So I was on my local league's board for 4 years, 2 years as VP and introduced: new formats for A/B/C divisions, new games, players rankings, weighted draws (memorial shoot), league playoffs and league champions, new logo, updated rules and bylaws, in-season singles tournaments, elections, new website, new awards: most improved, rookie of the year, individual win %, etc.

    The previous board members had been in charge for 10 years and saw a decline from 40+ teams to 10 Sad At least when I was on the board we got up to 18 teams.

    I stepped down after 4 years and I still had the most votes for VP even though I was NOT on the ballot. I'm not even playing team league darts right now, trying to get MLD up and running and as of this post, we've had 9 tournaments across 2 countries and there are another 4 booked with another 6-8 in the works.

    Leagues and Tournament play do have different needs, but some of the same principles can be applied to both. If you have 100 people in your league, but only 5-6 are showing up at the local tournament and if only 50 are showing up at your in-house singles tournaments based on their team division....you still have a problem. It is a fact that the local tournament is NOT catering to even 5% of the league. 50% turnout is pretty good for the in-house singles tournaments, so why are those people not attending the local tournament????? Solve that and we're well on our way to fixing the greater problems.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    fotoman wrote:
    It is a fact that the local tournament is NOT catering to even 5% of the league. 50% turnout is pretty good for the in-house singles tournaments, so why are those people not attending the local tournament????? Solve that and we're well on our way to fixing the greater problems.


    It's EASY just let EVERYONE win.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    u know shannonmiles, your schtick imho has gotten real old. You have not offered a single ferretting postive thing to this discussion or just about any discussion on this forum. Your a broken record with the same damn crap argument, blame it on society decline, soft tip handicapping blah blah blah. Typically I try to ignore people inclined to your approach but I have had enough of it, if you don't have anything to contribute with some decent half thought out reasoning, you really just ought to get lost, your a real drag. You argue for the sake of just ticking people off, you take some warped pleasure in it, you don't care about any real solutions. Your ckicken little just waiting for the sky to fall.

    That's my opinion and i am sticking to it, if the powers at be decide to de-mod or un-mod me so be it, but I really feel it needed to be said.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I used to jump up and down and pull my hair out when no one showed up for the PDC events here in the North East..... I got mad when our rank and file dart league players could not be arsed out to drive ten miles to even freaking WATCH! It's not that I have not given my position thought. I think the round and round of this same sad goddamn discussion has worn me out. BTW I'm as entitled to my goddamn opinion as you or anyone else is so screw off.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You know what? ...... I've seen you at ONE event Cannibal. Once in all the years you have posted on this site. One that happened to be by the way in your back yard Rolling Eyes. You useless keyboard warrior. Go to some tournaments. Run some youth events. Put what this game really need back into it and by that I mean TIME/PARTICIPATION and MONEY. You judge me? That's a laugh. I play darts all over this country. I support the game. I drive literally hours each way to play league darts. I drive and fly all over the country to support WITH my presence at tournaments the game I love. You are a bad joke. Rolling Eyes
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You don't have a clue what I have done or not done for darts in my area and at my local in particular. Those people who have benefited they know it and that is all that matters to me.

    There is a reason I don't travel to ADO tournaments, and those reason are mine and mine alone, I wouldn't waste my time explaining it to you anyway.

    This is as far in the mud I am going to get with you...so in the immortal words of Fez from the 70's show " I say good day to you sir.....I said good day!"
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Good. Rolling Eyes
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I wondered about this thread from the get-go, and knew that at some point it would probably get personal. That's too bad, yet I have to agree with Cannibal. I cannot think of a single constructive "opinion" from the nattering nabob of negativity.

    You know, just because people have opinions does not mean that the rest of the world is obligated to tolerate them.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Blather incessantly and fantasize all you want. Let me know how your trophies only steel tip tournaments go. I hope you fund them with your own money so I can laugh at you.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    barjo wrote:

    You know, just because people have opinions does not mean that the rest of the world is obligated to tolerate them.


    Spoken like a true liberal. I'm allowed to have opinion as long as YOU agree with it? Get over yourself.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles, if you've ever offered a constructive post in a serious discussion - post it again here. If not, then piss off. You know nothing about me or my leanings (though I do remember you calling me a 'typical liberal' shortly after I joined here.

    You're a troll. I have no doubt that you're personally and directly responsible for so many people no longer posting here. With your aggressive and obnoxious behavior here, you're the last person who should be demanding that opinions be accepted. Your behavior is typical of the selfish person who belittles everyone else and then claims the "right" to do so, acting as if any responsibility for exercising that right is a one-way street. How much more pompous can any one person be?

    You brag about chalking - yet you're a jerk about it when asked, even making rude comments at the board. You brag about your "participation" and "support" for darts, yet your behavioral track record at tournaments is not something to brag about. You are about as much an ambassador of darts as Michael Vick is for his sport, or Mel Gibson for film. I've heard tournament directors say, "oh great, he's here again." Get what I'm at? Do you need a road map? So much for your "support" of the sport. You're a legend in your own mind.

    For the record, if you think this is personal - you're right. I've been insulted often enough by you to merit a response to your rude and offensive behavior.

    So if you've got something constructive to add, then put up or shut up. Cuz frankly, your opinions up to date just simply suck.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Let's keep the personal attacks out of it please.Take it over to Just Sayin' if the need to vent is still strong.You may have had a different experience with Larry than I when it comes to scoring...at every tourney I see Larry at...he is chalking his ass off.I love Larry's passion for the game,and no I do not agree with his opinions at all times,but they make me think about the subject matter,which is never a bad thing.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Shannonmiles
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    Go Navy Darter


    Joined: Aug 23, 2006
    Posts: 2348
    Location: North Dartmouth MA USA

    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'm SURE tournament directors are furious when my entry fee x4 walks thru the doors Rolling Eyes moron. Eff off.
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    barjo
    First Sergeant
    First Sergeant


    Joined: Apr 23, 2007
    Posts: 1200

    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dwalsh wrote:
    Let's keep the personal attacks out of it please.Take it over to Just Sayin' if the need to vent is still strong.You may have had a different experience with Larry than I when it comes to scoring...at every tourney I see Larry at...he is chalking his ass off.I love Larry's passion for the game,and no I do not agree with his opinions at all times,but they make me think about the subject matter,which is never a bad thing.
    Dwalsh, I speak from personal experience, as could others. As far as "just sayin" goes, I don't bother with it. IMO, the fact that it even exists is a sad commentary on this forum. For me this is far more than opinions (I've actually agreed with SM's opinion several times), it is about rude and obnoxious behavior from a disrespectful person who consistently demands respect from others. Opinions are one thing, behavior is another. But hey, what do I know? Forum participation is up to what, five people? Six, seven? Nah, there's no connection at all!

    And no, the directors couldn't care less about those registration $$.
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    Dart_talker
    Senior Moderator
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    Joined: Sep 05, 2005
    Posts: 4968
    Location: Southern California

    PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    This is a topic that will continue to come up as long as there are folks who are passionate about darts, and for the most part the replies that are posted will be much the same, but at the end of the day the discussion must be carried on until the sport of darts undergoes a rebirth or breaths it's last breath.

    There are a lot of great ideas on the table, but it comes down to one thing....
    How many new folks have you brought into the game?
    - If you are not actively recruiting new players, you are just watching the game languish and waiting to morn it (some have started their morning already).


    Things I think about when I'm trying to grow my league:
    - Don't ignore to weaker players, because they have the potential to introduce the game to their spouses and or kids.

    - When the non-dart playing individual wanders into a dart tournament, and does not flee for their lives.... take some time to wander over and chat with them about the game of darts and the tournament. If they don't know how the tournament game is played, give them an idea of what they are watching.

    - Break out the darts at large (or small) family gatherings.
    Kids like learning new things, and if they enjoy the they will pester their parents to play the game with them. Kids pick up on the safety rules quickly if make sure they know the unsafe play means no more play for the day. Your relatives may not like the idea so much, but you can help them learn the game with their kids.

    - Each league should hand out at least one of the following awards each season:
    * Sportsmanship Award - it helps each player in the league thing about the importance of playing darts in a civil manner. It doesn't have to be an extravagant award, but something that let's everyone know that Sportsmanship is a valued trait.
    * Most improved player - something that let's everyone know that the goal is to strive for improvement in the game of darts.
    * Promoting the Sport of Darts Award - Given to someone that recruits new teams, players, league venues and tournament sponsors.
    ** Again none of these awards needs to be extravagant, but it's important to give people recognition for helping to build the sport.

    - If it's possible find kid friendly venues that will allow you to put up dartboards and get some kids games going...
    * Bowling alleys, some pool halls, lodges legions and clubs will go for kids playing darts when they are supervised.

    I know I'm being a bit redundant, but it just stuff that we all need to keep in mind about growing the sport... unless you are already in morning - in which case you can disregard this post. Sad Crying or Very sad
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    GeorgeSilberzah
    General Silberzahn
    General Silberzahn


    Joined: Jan 08, 2007
    Posts: 1363
    Location: Wilm. DE, USofA

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    While you are all discussing what you think may work I suggest you check out the "Player's Tournament." It works, has already been run seven times with great success and excitment from all the levels of dart players. It does not have to be modified, or tinkered with, just used.
    It addresses all the reasons grass roots players do not attend tournaments.
    It is over three years old. It was just used by the GTCDL in Tennesee to much acclaim from the most skilled to least skilled.
    They plan on running quite a few more across the whole State.
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