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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Solutions "How to grow the sport?"
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    Solutions "How to grow the sport?"
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    cannibal
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Reiterating Reply with quote

    Dreadnaught wrote:
    Don't want to re-hash some other posts, but consider this--we're about to have a State Championship where they'll have 3 divisions, and the payouts will be bigger for the weakest players and smallest for the best players. .......
    So I think we're proving a payout structure that serves as a disincentive to improvement is more likely to kill a sport than improve it.


    This kind of thing bothers me, but does not surprise me. Understanding how to structure incentives to get the behavior you want is something not understood very well by organizers (or many people for that matter). In this case I would think it would be more than obvious.

    I am a firm believer money needs to trickle up to the better shooters as they are the ones that need it to travel and find better competition and a host of other incentive based reasons.
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    calebjkeen
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Ten-pin bowling isn't exatly setting the world on fire in terms of participation numbers, lol. If I remember correctly it's an activity pretty much confined to the Northeast, somewhat like American darts.

    Long seasons might work for them, but I don't think you can substantively grow the number of people playing darts unless you get a) a US world champion who in the way they present the sport b) cut the connection to alcohol. Anything less than that (i.e. tweaking league schedules and formats) doesn't promise substantial increase in participation to my mind, at least. Those kinds of changes only matter to people who already participate on some leve.
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cutting the ties to alcohol??? You really feel that by locking out your potential sponsors,you can grow the sport?This sport "is what it is"..it will never be mainstream in this country,but it can still be relevant as the niche sport that it is.While there is no drinking onstage at aPDC event...alcohol,not only is embraced offstage,it is encouraged.Embrace this for what it is...competition,fun..etc.We over think this stuff sometimes.But it is still fun to talk about.
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    calebjkeen wrote:
    Ten-pin bowling isn't exatly setting the world on fire in terms of participation numbers, lol. If I remember correctly it's an activity pretty much confined to the Northeast, somewhat like American darts.


    Are you thinking of candlepin bowling? That's a New England thing. Ten-pin is actually quite popular nationally. It's on TV all the time on one of the ESPN variation. And that final bowling tournament scene at the end of "Kingpin"....that's no joke. I know someone who goes out to Reno for it every year.
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    overlord wrote:
    Just spilling some milk out on the kitchen floor seeing if anyone laps it up...

    habanerojooz wrote:

    Professional level - tournaments only

    Amateur level – tournaments only


    Tournaments could have 2 flights
    Pro - $ Flight
    Recreational - No $ Flight

    I'm been asking several people in there hobbies and found Frisbee Golf does this very same thing.

    Rec would still pay a "Tournament Administration" fee or "Right to Assemble License" fee, or what have you.
    .


    I competed in racquetball tournaments throughout the 80's. I raced motocross in the late 70's and early 80's.

    In both cases, only the top division won cash while the lower divisions got only trophies. I'm pretty sure that the prize structure in both sports are still like this today (i.e. money paid only to the top divisions and non-cash prizes like trophies awarded in the lower divisions).

    These other sports offer different divisions/classes for you to compete in, based upon your level of skill. You progress upward through the classes at your own pace. If you were a frequent competitor, the event organizers knew who you were as did all of the competitors. Thus, sandbagging is not something that would last for very long. The event promoters wouldn't allow it and fellow competitors had the option to file a formal protest and get you moved up to the next class.

    Having different classes of competition is not a form of handicap. Everybody in a class has roughly the same level of ability and they compete with each other on equal terms.

    Over the years, I've witnessed that some steel tip darters avoid tournaments because they don't want to be drawn against a top player in the first round and lose. In their minds they're thinking...."why waste their money?".

    While I have a different mindset than this, my personal feelings on this type of thinking is not the point.

    The point is that we might have more people playing in tournaments if they could choose which division that they felt comfortable playing in and they were allowed to progress upward through the ranks at their own pace.

    Think of it this way. How successful would your local league be if it did not offer different divisions to play in?
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Quote:
    I competed in racquetball tournaments throughout the 80's. I raced motocross in the late 70's and early 80's.

    In both cases, only the top division won cash while the lower divisions got only trophies. I'm pretty sure that the prize structure in both sports are still like this today (i.e. money paid only to the top divisions and non-cash prizes like trophies awarded in the lower divisions).


    I'm glad to here there are other "sports" out there that this is the way it works...

    Just trying to question everything in effort of "how to grow the sport".

    Is this type of tournament "worth it"? Is this something we should try doing in effort to get attendance up?

    I personally think it is....but...?
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    there are a lot of other sports where this happens. it's the logical next step to garner more participation from the entire range of skillsets in a sport.

    There are people who want to compete and like to compete, but are not at the top of the game. Why limit their tournament experience with a drubbing in the first round? How does this help anyone? It just makes no sense.

    Now you have to take the money part out of it; once you introduce money, the human mind (esp the American one) shifts, both conscientiously and sub-conscientiously, usually not for the better. Remove that element and people will still want to participate.

    I sucked at handball (well, my car accident had a lot to do with my performance on the court after that), but I still plunked down my $25-35 and played in nearly every tournament I could for 4 years after that (including 1 national championship and 2 collegiate national championships). I loved to compete and the tournaments were setup to allow that. I played in the C and B divisions. I flat out was not good enough for the Open/A divisions, but does that mean I did not deserve a chance to compete????

    darts as a sport is dying (participation levels in the US) and if we continue with the same setups, tournaments will look very sad in 5-10 years
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    fotoman wrote:
    darts as a sport is dying (participation levels in the US) and if we continue with the same setups, tournaments will look very sad in 5-10 years
    A big reason why tournaments are affected is the cost of travel & lodging, which has increased exponentially over the cost of entry fees. Fewer people can afford a) the time off work without losing their job, b) the expense of a flight/long drive, hotel, meals, etc. It is not the prospect of losing a $15 entry feel to a better player in the first round. How many people play the one tournament that their league sponsors, or one close enough that they can drive home each day and that's it?

    To keep tournament competition going, the leagues need to be growing. As with any member organization, if you're not growing, you're dying.

    How many people act as ambassadors for their league, or even the sport, for that matter? Do you have business cards to give people? How often do you put out flyers, or chat to pub owners that don't have darts? How often do you stop by places that do have dartboards, but no league teams, to try and meet people that might not know about leagues? How many people are active in their league beyond just playing?

    What do people do besides just whine about it all?
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    barjo wrote:
    fotoman wrote:
    darts as a sport is dying (participation levels in the US) and if we continue with the same setups, tournaments will look very sad in 5-10 years
    What do people do besides just whine about it all?


    Here's something that was done on June 25th in NJ:
    The Battle of New Jersey Dart Leagues.
    Four leagues sent ten representatives each to contest for the "Garden State Trophy." This is now darts equivalent to Stanley Cup.
    There was no money involved, only bragging rights and there were people who wanted to participate but couldn't because of the limit of ten people.
    The contestants were not the people who attend well known tournaments - they were the people who make up dart leagues. The ones who can't afford cash or time. They traveled in one large van or car pooled. It was what darts used to be before people began thinking darts can be something at which a person can earn a living. It was what will eventually generate the "public interest" that may be able to support some "pros."

    Everyone exclaimed what a great time they had, and are looking forward to next year. They each received a memento medalian, the winning team's engraved with "Winners." This can be seen on Dart book and my website. The winning league took home the trophy until next year. After that they get the plate on a smaller trophiy to keep.
    From 11 Am to 7 PM lots and lots of round robin darts.
    Here's what we expect from this:
    Grass roots interest- it was "their" league and team mates and they will talk about this the whole of next year. Selection of the ten reps for next year will be something of a badge of honor and prestige. This selection process has already started in the minds of those "grass roots" league members who are the 'game' of darts recreational players. They have interest in this for the same reason they have interest in the team on which they play.
    People who are trying to 'grow' darts in America should consider working at building an audience of supporters. People play darts for the bragging rights (ego); they do not play this game for money, never have. Only those who travel to big tournaments need the prize money. They do need the money but it is still all about the ranking.
    We, in NJ, are working at creating interest, and growth, of individual dart leagues and through that, Darts.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Snowball Cup Reply with quote

    We had the same thing in Chicago years and years ago--a battle of leagues. Long before my time, but I heard it was one of the most fun any league player every had. No $, but a great time.
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: Snowball Cup Reply with quote

    Dreadnaught wrote:
    We had the same thing in Chicago years and years ago--a battle of leagues. Long before my time, but I heard it was one of the most fun any league player every had. No $, but a great time.

    Hab informs us that something similar has been going on in Texas for seventeen years. I guess "everything old is new again" really can happen.
    Idea We, here, have talked about the "banquets" we used to have where the real motivation was to reward our 'significant other' for putting up with our darts habit by throwing a dress up, corsage at the door, sit down dinner. Live music, table filled with sparkling trophies, presentations to much applause, a whole to-do where part of the fun was getting all gussied up. And it didn't cost an arm and a leg. We went to V.F.W.s, fire halls and places such as that. People who run those places appreciated the money we spent and were part of our community.
    Our purpose was to empty the treasury of all but enough cash to start it all over again the next year. We didn't waste money on cash prizes that only get complaints at how little they are, and 'why didn't all the teams get money' kinds of complaints. And no darts played. What 'significant other' wants to spend the evening watching us do what we have been doing all year?
    Maybe, with some work and luck, we can again have a league that is attractive to younger folks. It seems they may be ready for some of that 'old time' stuff.
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    PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Create a NEW Challenge with an Old Game! Reply with quote

    Play any Golf Course in the world on a Standard Dart board,and Shoot scores like the (Golf) Pros!!

    The Challenge is Just like Golf! BREAK PAR!! Par is "72" for 18 holes on most Normal (average) Golf Courses.

    go to: www.dartgolf.us for the rules, ALL QUESTIONS can be answerd there.

    MY CHALLENGE (TO You) is to play 72 holes (4 rounds of 18 Holes)and Break par on each round,or at least shoot a total score of 284 (4 under par)

    I would appreciate an HONEST Reply! (LOL) HAVE FUN and Learn!
    "THE NEXT TRADITIONAL GAME of DARTS!!"

    I DARE YA!!!
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Some very good posts and suggestions. The issue surrounding tournament structure I would like to address in another thread at another time.

    Continuing on the focus of local/league approaches to growing the game, my position is one that darts is still a grassroots/small/fringe sport and that growing at the local level first is crucial in taking darts to the next level of increased participation, raising the standard of play, and bring more money into the game.

    As informative e.g.'s and as promised I will point out what my leauge (QCEDL) has done poorly or wrongly that create disincentives or obstacles for growing the game.

    Many have mentioned Youth as being a factor for growing the sport. I agree it is, QCEDL does nothing for youth. In the past they have run youth leagues but for many reasons this has gone by the way side. Unfortunately I have no experience and no concrete ideas in this area.

    From my observations there is a lack of information on QCEDL activities. The league relies on its website and team captians to pass along information to shooters and bars. Due to the situation that most are just out for the one league night there is no incentive for them to inform their teams of the shoots, LOD's, etc...Very few league members check the website and if they do they seem to just check standings. The league website is badly in need of a redesign to fit the needs of the league.

    What is needed to rectify this situation is someone on the board to take responsibility of PR/Promotions and a cmmtte. This position would be responsible for ensuring shoots and events are advertised well in advance in flyers, local papers, websites. In addition better information for prospective sponsors should be available, for e.g. a packet explaining benefits of having a dart team, revenue projections for league nights as well as hosting a shoot. Explain what is required by a sponsor, for e.g. quidlines for space, board, lighting, etc...

    There is a lack of pushing the talented upcoming shooters into singles competitions. This is partly due to the above, but it also is rooted in the rules of the league. Shooters can not participate in team play and singles league, you can only do one or the other. Singles league is on Thursday same night as team play. The league could easily adopt a structure used by PDSL, this could result in more sponsors, more darts, more opportunity across the city, as well as raise the standard of play.

    Single shoot formats are too short, a longer format of play needs to be instituted, or more matches with a shorter format could create same incentives. I believe this is a crucial factor into raising the standard of play. It creates incentive for the less talented shooters to come out and have a go if they have the opportunity to throw more darts and its what they need to improve. This shooters don't mind playing the best, they just want more than 2 legs and then go home. It gives the better shooters incentive as well because they face better probability of beating less talented shooters. Better for sponsors as individuals spend more time at bar. Result is more money from sponsors, more money from increased entries.

    Given the population movement out of philadelphia, it would make sense for the league to establish leagues in the suburbs or at least attempt to expand into non traditional darting areas of the city. There are a lof of obstacles to this one as steel tip darts are vitrually non existent in the burbs. Moving into other areas of the city has its problems as well partly due to shooters desire not to travel far to play. In 4 years of playing the furtherst I have had to travel from my house is about 15 minutes of driving. Darts has also traditionally been the domain of white males which has limited it to specific geographical locations of the city. I think that growing the sport should include reaching beyond this demographic.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    habanerojooz wrote:
    overlord wrote:
    Just spilling some milk out on the kitchen floor seeing if anyone laps it up...

    habanerojooz wrote:

    Professional level - tournaments only

    Amateur level – tournaments only


    Tournaments could have 2 flights
    Pro - $ Flight
    Recreational - No $ Flight

    I'm been asking several people in there hobbies and found Frisbee Golf does this very same thing.

    Rec would still pay a "Tournament Administration" fee or "Right to Assemble License" fee, or what have you.
    .


    These other sports offer different divisions/classes for you to compete in, based upon your level of skill. You progress upward through the classes at your own pace. If you were a frequent competitor, the event organizers knew who you were as did all of the competitors. Thus, sandbagging is not something that would last for very long. The event promoters wouldn't allow it and fellow competitors had the option to file a formal protest and get you moved up to the next class.

    Having different classes of competition is not a form of handicap. Everybody in a class has roughly the same level of ability and they compete with each other on equal terms.

    The point is that we might have more people playing in tournaments if they could choose which division that they felt comfortable playing in and they were allowed to progress upward through the ranks at their own pace.

    Think of it this way. How successful would your local league be if it did not offer different divisions to play in?


    Once again Hab brings good things to the conversation.

    Here's my bit: There is no way to compare relative skill in steel tip darts. Some leagues are working on this but it is not by any means a standard thing, so the ranking in one league is all but useless for comparing beyond that league.
    First step to toward implementing the suggestions made by Hab, and the others here? Standardize a system for averages in steel tip.
    First step toward standardizing an average system? Set up divisions within leagues that must use the standard averaging system for America (North America, I suppose).
    This is a step which can be taken by those who are active in the administration of their league by bringing it up to the BOD as a proposed program for their league.

    First step toward getting leagues to use a system? This brings us back to the ADO again. There is no other organization in America which has contact with so many leagues and players.

    Rolling Eyes We're back to the question: what role do the people running the ADO wish to have? I ask this with no animise, just an interest in putting this to bed one way or another.

    To any and all ADO people reading this: I'd like a reply to that question rather than silence, please.

    Next step? Input from all the people who are reading this thread to build upon what has come so far.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: START AGAIN Reply with quote

    Hello again!

    I am very NEW on a computer, and to this method of communication so I have to ASK.

    What does it take to GET (or See) a response from my inquiry? I am Slightly Disapointed in NO Replies? I thought peple were looking for Ideas?

    I have RE-Submitted my FIRST Attempt,and All I would like to know is IF there is any "Merit" to what I had Proposed? Is it that foriegn for people to think NEW or (just a little) "out of the Box" Different Rules to play,but the same Equipment.

    I beleive ALL sports have adjusted their games over the years. From the Equipment used to the RULES played by,But they always keep the Fundamentals the SAME!The Same is true with DARTGOLF!! We simply have a NEW set of (Game) Rules. (NOT Equipment, Not Method OF Play) the difference between 01 and Cricket is just the (game) Rules!


    Everyone here seems to be interested in IMPROVING our game, BUT what are you willing to DO (Action) to make it Better,or more interesting,OR FUN ? I've read all the Suggestions,and IDEAS BUT I haven't seen any Real New ways to Beat an old horse!

    We basicly have Two Horses (01 and Cricket) and both have there own Pedigree. Both have proven to be Champions (in there own right)

    All I'm saying is Maybe we should consider ADDING a NEW Horse to the Stable and give it a chance (to run)and see what it can do! Give the other two a chance Re Group. Who remembers The old BURMA ROAD Tournaments? They gave us a BREAK from the Traditional, and it was FUN!

    Maybe Golf could do that again? 18 Holes doesn't take that long!

    I apoligize if I have offended anyone,But I BELEIVE it's time to:
    "STOP THINKING about Good IDEAS and START ACTING ON A GOOD IDEA!!"

    I would truley Like to SEE If anyone is willing to take some Physical action, and PLAY the Game BEFORE you make any Final Judgement on the game. IS THAT FAIR?? I just want an Honest and True OPINION(from people with the same frame of mind of HELPING IMPROVE our game) to see if What I think has any Potential or Not!

    So here it is AGAIN! My Attempt to IMPROVE, INCREASE, REJUVINATE,and (even) develope a Better Image for This game we all LOVE Called DARTS!! Maybe with a little Help from another game that has a lot of participation called GOLF!

    That's it ! NOW READ ON!!


    PLAY any Golf Course in the world on a Standard Dart board,(useing YOUR Darts)and Shoot scores like the Pros!! (The Golf pros!)

    The Challenge is Just like Golf! BREAK PAR!! Par is "72" for 18 holes on most Normal (average) Golf Courses. Everything is based on the Scoring of Golf (Including a Handicap system Built right in!)

    go to: www.dartgolf.us for the rules, ALL QUESTIONS can be answerd there. (IS this a problem?)

    MY CHALLENGE (TO You) is to play 72 holes (4 rounds of 18 Holes)and Break par on each round,(If you can?) or at least shoot a (total) score of 284 (4 under par) over the 72 holes.

    I would appreciate an HONEST Reply! (LOL) HAVE FUN and Learn!
    "THE NEXT (Possible)TRADITIONAL GAME of DARTS!!"

    I DARE YA!!!
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    On the issue of constructing a method for comparing skill levels for dividing pros, amateurs etc... for tournament play I don't think this needs to be done or should be done. There are other methods that are much easier and not a logistical nightmare of record keeping to accomplish self selection into the appropriate level of play.

    In fact this is an area that has been extensively researched in the field of economics, its falls typically under what we call signalling. A related solution to the problem can also be found in solutions that we typically use for problems of adverse selection. Basically the idea is to create incentives of reward and cost structures so that those different level of shooters will optimally choose what level of play is best for them. If done properly it results in much better outcomes for the participants and tournament directors don't need to have the information on what everyones skill set is.

    An e.g. of creating the right incentives can be found in the players tournament (George's tournaments) prize structure. Basically the lowest level winner got less than the lowest money finisher of the highest bracket. Staggering the prize structure in this situation prevents the extremes of the top shooters sand bagging all the way down. Of course those in the middle are a problem as some incentive to shoot up and some to shoot down. So let them, in the case of the players tournament you win your group you automatically have to shoot in the higher group next time.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: I really can't believe this--Part 859 Reply with quote

    Why is it that people think changing the game is the answer to anything? If you can't play 501 well, or keep getting beat in cricket, what makes anyone think dartgolf would be any different? Soft tip boards have larger targets, yet people still miss. And how much has golf changed in the last 100 years? How's that Stableford system catching on? What's next? Do overs? Wild cards?

    Not to beat a horse long dead, but I seriously doubt the solution to improving the popularity of darts is to invent a new game. 501 thrives everywhere else, and once you get the hang of it, you realize it takes more skill than cricket and is more nerve-wracking as well.

    And as far as a handicap system, when are players going to realize that all a handicap system does is 'handicap' you from becoming a good dart player, and making the process that much more difficult. It benefits whoever collects the quarters and others who game the system, but manages to wreck the sport in the process.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    sirduke, welcome to the forum, understand that responses take time. Also please read the COC (code of conduct) your post is border line spam. Will let it slide for now, you got your website out there here and in another thread leave it at that please.

    Agreed a new game is not the solution. The standard measurement of
    quality play is number of darts to finish 501, 501 is the game. Us yanks we like to to do things are own way so we throw in cricket.

    Handicapping (a'la soft tip) is not a solution for steel tip darts I think most can agree on that, as evident from the conversations here. Leave handicapping to the soft tip game, its a different game imho still darts but different than steel. Let the shooters decide what they want, soft or steel, or both as some do.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    cannibal wrote:
    Basically the idea is to create incentives of reward and cost structures so that those different level of shooters will optimally choose what level of play is best for them. If done properly it results in much better outcomes for the participants and tournament directors don't need to have the information on what everyones skill set is.

    I agree that participants be allowed to choose their own level. If they play at, or below, their level and they consistently 'place' in that level, then they will be promoted to the next level of play. If they play 'up' (i.e. take their lumps Smile ) and they 'place' in that level, then they are required to play in that level in future events.

    Tournament directors must also keep records of their tournament results. Maintaining a historical record of tournament finishes (sorted by name and level/division), will allow TD's to:

    - determine when to promote players to the next level of competition
    - provide support to players that wish to file a (sandbagger) protest
    - provide tournament results data to a national database so that other TD's can use it and prevent players from sandbagging in their tournaments

    cannibal wrote:
    An e.g. of creating the right incentives can be found in the players tournament (George's tournaments) prize structure. Basically the lowest level winner got less than the lowest money finisher of the highest bracket. Staggering the prize structure in this situation prevents the extremes of the top shooters sand bagging all the way down.

    I support this money payout structure for levels that have cash payouts.

    IMO, not all tournament competition levels should have cash payouts. Like I've stated in previous posts, I think that the lower divisions should get non-financial awards. The following is a hypothetical example of tournament divisions and payout levels:

    Open/Pro division: Cash payouts to top 8
    A division: Cash payout to top 4
    B division: Trophies to top 4
    C division: Trophies to top 4
    Novice division: Trophies to top 4
    Youth division(s): Trophies to top 8

    The cash payout in the Open/Pro division should be much higher than the cash payout in the A division. Also, 1st place payout in the A division should never 'exceed' the cash payout of the lowest paying position in the Open/Pro division.

    Normally, there are more players in the B/C/Novice divisions than the Open/Pro or A divisions. Some of the money used to fund the payouts of the Open/Pro and A divisions will be drawn from the entry fees of the B/C/Novice divisions.

    cannibal wrote:
    Of course those in the middle are a problem as some incentive to shoot up and some to shoot down. So let them, in the case of the players tournament you win your group you automatically have to shoot in the higher group next time.

    If you play 'up' and you place in the higher division, then you are required to compete in that division in future events.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    cannibal wrote:
    On the issue of constructing a method for comparing skill levels for dividing pros, amateurs etc... for tournament play I don't think this needs to be done or should be done. There are other methods that are much easier and not a logistical nightmare of record keeping to accomplish self selection into the appropriate level of play.


    If there are multiple tournament divisions (i.e. Open/Pro, A, B, C, Novice, Youth), I think it useful to have 'suggested' guidelines which help players choose which level is right for them.

    For example, 'A division' suggested guidelines could be:
    - 501: average 21-24 darts
    - Cricket: average 3 - 3.5 MPR

    You don't need to keep detailed records of individual stats for this. Players know themselves approximately where they stand and they can choose which division suits them.

    The suggested guidelines are only that...suggestions....they would not be used to exclude players from a certain division. This allows a lower level to 'play up' a level if they choose to do so.

    Obviously if a player chooses a division which is lower than their abilities, they will win it (or 'place' in it) and that would bump them up to the next division for future events. They would get away with this only 1 time. Continuous sandbagging becomes much harder if the TD's take an active role.

    cannibal wrote:
    Basically the idea is to create incentives of reward and cost structures so that those different level of shooters will optimally choose what level of play is best for them. If done properly it results in much better outcomes for the participants and tournament directors don't need to have the information on what everyones skill set is.

    An e.g. of creating the right incentives can be found in the players tournament (George's tournaments) prize structure. Basically the lowest level winner got less than the lowest money finisher of the highest bracket. Staggering the prize structure in this situation prevents the extremes of the top shooters sand bagging all the way down. Of course those in the middle are a problem as some incentive to shoot up and some to shoot down. So let them, in the case of the players tournament you win your group you automatically have to shoot in the higher group next time.


    Totally agree with this stuff.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    round and round it goes........ Rolling Eyes Laughing I have been on SEWA for almost 5 years. This conversation has been had for that entire time period in one thread or another. We have to realize that us weirdoes that not only play darts but TALK ABOUT IT NONSTOP on the internet are the 1%ers. As a society we have lost over the past 25 years the drive to be the best at any given endeavor and sadly we have lost even the drive to compete. Dart leagues are shrinking not due to the “GAME” but rather the lack of new membership filling the ranks. The “game” has not changed…….the people have. We have become a country of weenies and we dart weirdoes just cannot recognize it because we can only see the game thru our own perspective. I cannot understand WHY others don’t love this game………..BUT THEY DON’T. I cannot understand WHY anyone would play a game that they did not try to be the best……….BUT THEY DO. I cannot understand how anyone can take any satisfaction from winning a game they were given an advantage……….BUT THEY DO. I have come to the realization that our best days are behind us. I’m ok with it or rather made my peace with it. It was a good run. A good run that will continue albeit shrinkingly for a good while. We are the dance band on the Titanic. Laughing At least enjoy the music………..
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    round and round it goes........ Rolling Eyes Laughing I have been on SEWA for almost 5 years. This conversation has been had for that entire time period in one thread or another. We have to realize that us weirdoes that not only play darts but TALK ABOUT IT NONSTOP on the internet are the 1%ers. ………..


    Yes, most of us in this thread fit into that '1%er' category. We are deeply connected to the game, by frequent participation in the game, and/or by having roles in running tournaments, and/or by having roles in leagues, and/or by having a direct influence in the aforementioned areas.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    As a society we have lost over the past 25 years the drive to be the best at any given endeavor and sadly we have lost even the drive to compete.

    I'm right there with you on this. I hate it myself and I think it is sad. I took my lumps in the beginning, I suffered through beatings, and I knew that anything that didn't kill me would make me stronger.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    Dart leagues are shrinking not due to the “GAME” but rather the lack of new membership filling the ranks. The “game” has not changed…….the people have.

    True. The people have changed. Not addressing this change, will lead to a continual decline in the game. We can sit back and be stubborn in our old ways and hang our hats on 'tradition', or we can adapt to the changing conditions with an eye on survival and growth. There is one simple word for this: Evolution.


    Shannonmiles wrote:
    We have become a country of weenies and we dart weirdoes just cannot recognize it because we can only see the game thru our own perspective. I cannot understand WHY others don’t love this game………..BUT THEY DON’T. I cannot understand WHY anyone would play a game that they did not try to be the best……….BUT THEY DO. I cannot understand how anyone can take any satisfaction from winning a game they were given an advantage……….BUT THEY DO. I have come to the realization that our best days are behind us.

    I guess that I'm an optimist in that I believe that we can adapt and turn this situation around. With a good dose of vision and leadership, each of us '1%ers' can make a noticable difference. Don't give up Laurence. Together, all of us can make a difference. Very Happy
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    habanerojooz wrote:
    True. The people have changed. Not addressing this change, will lead to a continual decline in the game. We can sit back and be stubborn in our old ways and hang our hats on 'tradition', or we can adapt to the changing conditions with an eye on survival and growth. There is one simple word for this: Evolution.


    Here is where we part ways sir.... Laughing Not in the fact the game will decline (it will)........... but I would rather watch it die than to play a watered down version of the game. I have no desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator (and as a society we are creating a whole BUNCH of lowest common denominators). If the day comes that I cannot play the game I love AS I THINK IT SHOULD be played I will quit. I will play in my living room with my kids (and hopefully grandchildren) and reminisce about the good old days but I refuse to be party to destroying the great game as it is meant to be played. So you progressives can all kiss my stubborn traditionalist old school behind ……ok just kidding but we CAN agree to disagree………??????? Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    habanerojooz wrote:
    True. The people have changed. Not addressing this change, will lead to a continual decline in the game. We can sit back and be stubborn in our old ways and hang our hats on 'tradition', or we can adapt to the changing conditions with an eye on survival and growth. There is one simple word for this: Evolution.


    Here is where we part ways sir.... Laughing Not in the fact the game will decline (it will)........... but I would rather watch it die than to play a watered down version of the game. I have no desire to appeal to the lowest common denominator (and as a society we are creating a whole BUNCH of lowest common denominators). If the day comes that I cannot play the game I love AS I THINK IT SHOULD be played I will quit. I will play in my living room with my kids (and hopefully grandchildren) and reminisce about the good old days but I refuse to be party to destroying the great game as it is meant to be played. So you progressives can all kiss my stubborn traditionalist old school behind ……ok just kidding but we CAN agree to disagree………??????? Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Sure, we can agree to disagree. It's all good with me. Very Happy

    I'm not a fan of handicapping and nowhere in my posts have I ever advocated handicapping. To me, handicapping is 'watering down the game'.

    My solutions are indeed changes, but they are changes aimed at triggering growth in the tournament side of the game. IMO, my proposed solutions are not related to 'watering down the game'.

    I don't view them as watering down the game for these reasons:

    1. the solutions that I proposed have nothing to do with handicapping
    2. the solutions do not change the upper levels of the tournament game
    3. the solutions still allow lower level players to 'take their lumps' and play against the best there is if they chose to do so
    4. the solutions allow a less experienced tournament player to compete at their level and progress at their own pace
    5. the solutions prevent sandbagging if managed properly by the TD's

    Perhaps debating over what constitutes 'watering the game down' is just a debate in semantics.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The game SHOULD be played "straight up".........the money SHOULD be at the top of the game not the bottom. However, this is in our current society model a fantasy. Everyone wants "their FAIR share". That’s why soft tip "C" flight has more money in it than the next two flights above it COMBINED. There is no drive to move up. If people think that limiting the payouts to the top divisions in steel tip will encourage people to show to fight it out for plaques in the lower divisions (while funding these great upper division payouts) they are kidding themselves Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Wink . The steel tip game has just passed this generation by....... it’s just too hard to be good at it for them to bother. Why bother when you can play soft tip and compete on a level playing field from the very beginning with EVERYONE else and for the same money or better. Rolling Eyes Laughing
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