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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - What's the rule
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    What's the rule

     
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    Nails111
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    PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: What's the rule Reply with quote

    Here’s a question:

    You’re playing a game of ’01, and say you have 32 left. You throw your first dart, trying for the D16, but hit a fat 16. The dart is just on the wrong side of the double wire and in the upper corner, adjacent to the 8 bed. Because it hit the wire, it is barely hanging on by a fiber. Your next shot is for the D8, but you know that, without a doubt, any vibration near the first dart will knock it out.

    Now, the question is; if you go for the D8 and hit it, but knock out the first dart, does it count as a finish? Looking at the ADO rules, I would say not.

    ADO rule #35 states, “For a dart to score it must remain in the board 5 seconds after the 3rd or final dart has been thrown by that player.”

    If that is indeed the case, then instead of going for the D8 could you shoot for the D16 again, knowing that the first dart will fall out? If you hit the D16 on your second dart, causing the first to fall out, is this a legitimate finish?

    Just curious, as this has happened to me before during some practice games.
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    double13
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    as far as i know once a dart hits the doulbe the game is over right away. this is true because if you hit the double with your second dart and throw the third dart at the board it is ot a bust.

    so the answer to your first question would be yes it would count as a finish as long as the double was hit before the single dart came out.

    the answer to your second question is no. it doesnt matter if the first dart falls out if the double was hit before the dart fell out.
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    double13
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    the ADO rules do not say anything but here is what the the PDC uses from the DRA rulebook.

    5.11.07 Any dart or darts mistakenly thrown by a Player after scoring the Game Shot shall not be counted as the respective leg, set or match is concluded by the Game Shot. 5.11.08 No indication of the required double to make the Game Shot shall be given by the Marker or the Referee (namely, for instance, “32 required” is permitted but not “Double 16 required”).
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    Taechon
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Excellent question. I would read it as 16 shot and 16 left. The dart that fell no longer counts. If you hit a fat 8 and the 16 fell out, you would have 8 points. Just for consistency I would think the rule was the same for the shot at the D-8. (I have no idea at all but that is the way I would call it. Then we would get the tournament director to come over and make the decision.) LOL
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    KopRalph11
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    For the first dart to count you would have had to hit the D8. As that would be gameshot and for a split second your darts would have totaled an out. However if you hit a fat8 and the 16 fell out you would have. 24 left. As the total remaining in the board.

    The key is game shot. The only moment that would count. Otherwise you are still within your turn of darts. Hence the 16 fall out would not count
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    KopRalph11
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    ADO rule #35 states, “For a dart to score it must remain in the board 5 seconds after the 3rd or final dart has been thrown by that player.”

    Hmmm I always thought of that as a dumb rule. 5.1 secs you're good 4.9 you're not. Sillyness imo.

    2 instances i remember well.

    Dennis the Menace running to the board to hold his final double in LOL.

    Peter Manley throwing his 3 darts quickly as the first was slowly dropping.
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As a tournament director I would ask the score keeper if he saw the winning double get hit before the first dart fell. If he did, then the game is over. If he did not, then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."

    As a player I would still try for the winning double and, if the first dart falls out and I'm NOT awarded the win, I'd simply go for another D8 with the last dart I'm still holding.
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    Dart_talker
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    PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    As a tournament director I would ask the score keeper if he saw the winning double get hit before the first dart fell. If he did, then the game is over. If he did not, then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."

    As a player I would still try for the winning double and, if the first dart falls out and I'm NOT awarded the win, I'd simply go for another D8 with the last dart I'm still holding.


    This explanation works for me... as long as you have a score keeper. The problem develops when you are playing a game, no score keeper, just you and your opponent. If your opponent does not see it happen, what then?
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    CraigB wrote:
    As a tournament director I would ask the score keeper if he saw the winning double get hit before the first dart fell. If he did, then the game is over. If he did not, then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."

    As a player I would still try for the winning double and, if the first dart falls out and I'm NOT awarded the win, I'd simply go for another D8 with the last dart I'm still holding.


    This explanation works for me... as long as you have a score keeper. The problem develops when you are playing a game, no score keeper, just you and your opponent. If your opponent does not see it happen, what then?


    That was mentioned above.

    Quote:
    Then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."
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    Dart_talker
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    Dart_talker wrote:
    CraigB wrote:
    As a tournament director I would ask the score keeper if he saw the winning double get hit before the first dart fell. If he did, then the game is over. If he did not, then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."

    As a player I would still try for the winning double and, if the first dart falls out and I'm NOT awarded the win, I'd simply go for another D8 with the last dart I'm still holding.


    This explanation works for me... as long as you have a score keeper. The problem develops when you are playing a game, no score keeper, just you and your opponent. If your opponent does not see it happen, what then?


    That was mentioned above.

    Quote:
    Then the "falling" dart rule applies unless the opponent saw the winning dart hit and follows rule #1 about "good sportsmanship."


    ...must have missed that one Embarassed
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    Last edited by Dart_talker on Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Mervyn
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    " ADO rule #35 states, “For a dart to score it must remain in the board 5 seconds after the 3rd or final dart has been thrown by that player.”

    Id just throw a dart outside the d16, knock out the first dart, and then go for the d16 finish.
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    fotoman
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    PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    sounds like a clarification is needed.

    The rule contradicts itself. A darts scores if it's in the board for 5 seconds unless it's the last dart.

    So, you can throw the game winning shot, it can hit the winning double and fall out and its a victory according to the rules.

    The rule should state that "all darts must remain in the board for 5 seconds or until a dart is touched to end the turn for it to count as a scoring dart." The touching of any dart and ending the turn is mentioned somewhere else in the rules.

    Get rid of the ambiguity in the rules, they help no one and only cause tension.

    In golf, the rules are simple, there are 34 rules on 40 pages. The Rulings and decisions on the rules of golf is a 700+ page manual. making things clear is what the governing body's job is.
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    KeyserSoze
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    PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I don't know much about the ADO and their rules, but the NDFC (Canadian governing body) rules state:

    "A dart shall only score if the point remains in, or touching, the face of the dart board, having been legally thrown; and after being ‘called’, has been retrieved by the thrower or designated retriever."

    That is about as clear as it gets - the dart only counts if it remains in the board until scored and retrieved.
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    Nails111
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    PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    KeyserSoze wrote:

    "A dart shall only score if the point remains in, or touching, the face of the dart board, having been legally thrown; and after being ‘called’, has been retrieved by the thrower or designated retriever."



    Thanks for all of the responses. I would say that there definitely needs to be some clarification within the rules. As Keyser states, maybe the ADO rule, for this case, should fall more in line with the NDFC’s. Spell it out…make it black and white. Like I said, this has only happened to me while practicing, but I can see this becoming a major cause of contention.
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    BobCat
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    PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    ADO Rule 35 is very clear.

    In this case, if the second dart hits D8 and dislodges the first dart causing it to fall out within 5 seconds then the player has 16 remaining.

    Likewise, technically, if both darts remain in the board and the player rushes up and pulls the darts before 5 seconds has elapsed after the last dart is thrown, then you have "no score". Since the score keeper must wait 5 seconds to make a decision, Rule 34 is broken, according to Rule 21 the turn is over.

    Clear as mud...
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    Davin
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    PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    great question...

    what about if you aiming at triple 18... the point of the dart is in the triple 18 bed but under the wire from the triple 4 bed? does it count as a triple 4 or or trip 18?
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    AmericanBadAss
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    PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Triple 4, that is the section where the dart first entered part of the board or wiring.
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    @Davin- it's where the point is touching, not which wedge it went through.
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    Davin
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That's not what American BA just said. So which is it guys?
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Davin wrote:
    That's not what American BA just said. So which is it guys?


    Treble 4.
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    PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Yep, the wire matters (that's why they're there). If the point went in on the T4 side, then it IS a T4 even if the tip ended up somewhere else.

    The wire matters counter-example: This one happens a lot on older boards, if the tip of the dart is in the red of the T20, but is outside the triple wire (i.e., on the S20 side of the wire), then this counts as a S20. I've seen this one when the wire is bent or the color bleeds outside the triple area.

    A no-wire example: If a dart is hung up on other darts, is not near a wire, but the tip is touching a scoring segment, then the dart counts and the area being touched by the tip is what is scored. In this case, it's the tip that counts.

    A final example: If a dart is hung up on other darts, but the tip isn't touching the board, then the dart has no value - i.e., it's a non-scoring dart. In other words, the tip has to be touching a scoring area of the board to count.

    Hope those help.
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    PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    yea, sorry guys, I knew the rule, I was just stoned on the pain meds and not really thinking clearly.

    ADO 36. A dart’s score shall be determined from the side of the wire
    at which the point of the dart enters the wire segment.
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    PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Great banter guys!

    Perfect thinking would be to go at d8, you dont really know for sure the 16 will fall out. But if it does, simply launch dart 3 straight into d8 as well.

    Then thats game shot, and no dispute can reach a different outcome, plus if you throw the 2nd d8 immediately you avoid having your concentration & flow affected by the kafuffle that occurs with disputes in darts Wink . If ya miss the second d8, then let the tournament ref sort it out.

    If its a social game then it all depends on how the person your playing sees it, rule number 1 also applies to the thrower, so if they say it's not shot (or they are not sportsmanlike), let it be, thats what a "good" sport would do....
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