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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Darts is dying in Columbus!!??
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    Darts is dying in Columbus!!??
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    Shannonmiles
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dsm1mtm wrote:
    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player.


    Maybe you should say some or most soft tip players. I would love to play against some of the best this country has to offer every day. I'll take the butt whoopins, but I KNOW it would make me better. I resent that you put anyone that plays soft tip into the sandbagger, crybaby, handicap basket. CAUSE IT IS TOTAL BS!!!!


    OK...... "Most" Rolling Eyes feel better?
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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    IMHO... the more folks you expose to the game, the better the chance you will find some truly talented players that can compete at the highest level.


    Exactly. I've played handicapped and non-handicapped leagues and tournaments. Handicapping draws the masses and, while I don't like handicapping, from those masses come good players.

    The players who have the talent and desire to be better, will be, regardless of the handicapping. It does not kill the desire to get better - I and most people I played with in the handicapped league admired the higher rated players and wanted to improve our ratings. It was a bragging right and an honor to be higher rated.

    The desire for improvement comes from the player, not from the format he plays.
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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    dsm1mtm wrote:
    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player.


    Maybe you should say some or most soft tip players. I would love to play against some of the best this country has to offer every day. I'll take the butt whoopins, but I KNOW it would make me better. I resent that you put anyone that plays soft tip into the sandbagger, crybaby, handicap basket. CAUSE IT IS TOTAL BS!!!!


    OK...... "Most" Rolling Eyes feel better?


    Thanks for making my point, dsm1mtm - it is the player, not the system. However, I do agree with Shannonmiles that there is a GENERAL mentality among players in handicapped systems that it is undesirable - even unfair - to play a better player without using the handicap. As you pointed out, not everyone has that mentality, but Shannonmiles's experience at Cloud 9 was typical of my experience, too.
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    barjo
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    I know that my opinion really does not matter much, but in the end it comes down to what we can make happen to keep the game alive, and develop new talent.
    I can't stand handicapping of any kind, myself, mainly because it is completely arbitrary. I want to win, and I want to win by beating the best on equal footing. But that's me. I don't like other things about soft-tip, but I respect that others love it. When I've come across a soft-tip bar there is usually someone playing, versus the steel-tip boards that are usually not being used. I've been the only one playing - even in Boston (gasp!) - several times.

    The bottom line is that steel-darters do not have a monopoly on the sport. Sports evolve over time, and the 'purists' can march the road of tradition but they'll end up getting passed up by a newbie with better wheels. Steel-tip throwers now have state-of-the-art boards which don't drop darts like they used to, the boards last longer, the wires are made especially to reduce bounce-outs, and - horror of all horrors - there are no more damn staples. I've been throwing for around 25 years - who the hell do these new whippersnappers think they are winning championships and tournaments without having to throw at staples?!! The game has been ruined! Evil or Very Mad

    Soft-tip and steel-tip are two different games in the same sport, and those who play soft-tip enjoy it and that is ALL that matters. It is a sport, it is recreation, it is a diversion from the stresses of life. There's absolutely no reason why ANY player should feel the need to be any more competitive than they so desire, nor should they be made to feel otherwise. If they like getting a trophy for walking through the door, so be it. BFD. Darts is still a game for the individual, and if an individual cannot cope with that, or compete with that, then cry me a river.

    The goal should be to promote the sport - both steel and soft-tip - to grow interest. It can only benefit all of us.

    Dart_talker wrote:
    Three years ago the Ventura County Dart Association was down to 5 teams, and things were looking bleak. However aggressive marketing has brought us to 14 teams for the last two seasons. I expect more teams next season!
    DT, I am very interested in hearing more about your aggressive marketing. I'm in Sao Paulo right now and though the darters here are devoted, we could use more players. The challenges are much different than in the US, but I'm sure there's something you did that could be helpful.

    BH - sometimes you ramble, IMO, Razz but these are some of your best posts. Kudos. Excellent work.
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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    *Deleted duplicate post*

    Last edited by JohnP on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    GeorgeSilberzah
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hey Larry, I'm looking at your unhappiness while sitting on a different perch. I've gone through a long career in darts - from near obsession to present during which I've struggled with how to enjoy the game without winning at it. This has always been a contradition to me - like how can you enjoy losing?? This, I think, comes close to your view of why do it at all.
    Here's my update: I quit playing altogether for the last four years because I kept getting my a-- handed to me and couldn't take it. Not playing with absolute confidence that I could beat anyone I came up against made engaging in competitions something I came to dred rather than look forward to doing.
    Last night I played in league, back in my old stomping grounds for the first time in ten years and I played as well as I thought I would - lousy - worse than lousy. But I discovered what I hadn't really been able to understand all those years. I was enjoying the shared inability of all of us on the team. (I'm back to playing in a lower division). We tried but just don't have it, but the good part is that since we know that, it's OK. We could enjoy the effort and complement each other on that rather than the accomplishment.
    And, best of all, my team mates were enjoying my companionship rather than how well I can play the game. I've been so afraid of embarassing myself, and worrying that people would think less of me because of my accomplishments and reputation that I've completly missed this part of participation. I've known all along about recreational players but never really related to that frame of mind.
    Maybe this is why so many people don't have the fire in their belly to compete? Maybe I've been right all along about the 80% of people who do not compete at darts, but rather play at it, just I didn't have the correct understandinng of their motive?
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    Shannonmiles
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    Hey Larry, I'm looking at your unhappiness while sitting on a different perch. I've gone through a long career in darts - from near obsession to present during which I've struggled with how to enjoy the game without winning at it. This has always been a contradition to me - like how can you enjoy losing?? This, I think, comes close to your view of why do it at all.
    Here's my update: I quit playing altogether for the last four years because I kept getting my a-- handed to me and couldn't take it. Not playing with absolute confidence that I could beat anyone I came up against made engaging in competitions something I came to dred rather than look forward to doing.
    Last night I played in league, back in my old stomping grounds for the first time in ten years and I played as well as I thought I would - lousy - worse than lousy. But I discovered what I hadn't really been able to understand all those years. I was enjoying the shared inability of all of us on the team. (I'm back to playing in a lower division). We tried but just don't have it, but the good part is that since we know that, it's OK. We could enjoy the effort and complement each other on that rather than the accomplishment.
    And, best of all, my team mates were enjoying my companionship rather than how well I can play the game. I've been so afraid of embarassing myself, and worrying that people would think less of me because of my accomplishments and reputation that I've completly missed this part of participation. I've known all along about recreational players but never really related to that frame of mind.
    Maybe this is why so many people don't have the fire in their belly to compete? Maybe I've been right all along about the 80% of people who do not compete at darts, but rather play at it, just I didn't have the correct understandinng of their motive?


    Good post George. I hear what you are saying. I guess I'm having a hard time putting how I feel into words. I guess it because I simply cannot relate to the frame of mind that you are referring to. I cannot understand how someone (obviously not directed at you) would not start out AT LEAST TRYING to be the best they can be. I have no problem with someone trying and then failing. As a matter of fact I respect the effort. What I don't respect is once you have reached your "level" but then wanting to compete with those whose "level" exceeds your own (for whatever reason i.e. natural talent....more practice....six fingers on their throwing hand.....binocular vision...etc etc etc)....... on a artificially leveled playing field.
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Great post, George - you've stated what we are saying about people needing and wanting to enjoy themselves. I understand exactly what you mean about not liking losing - but everyone except Taylor will come up against this.

    SM - good reply to George too. One addition to your 'artificially leveled playing field' comment - what people who fall far short of the gifted players get frustrated at is the fact that those genetically talented shooters did nothing themselves to gain that advantage. The field was unlevel for an unfair reason to start with, something out of their control.

    George's post is great cuz it's from someone who was at the top of the game. I find most people who can't understand my points are ones who are very successful.
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    keeper180 wrote:
    What a load of horse "BEEP"


    You should be more specific in your criticism, Keeper. Not much of value in your post. I imagine, given the specific wording, that it is my points you disagree with.

    A local great shooter, someone to whom I am sure you are very close, recently posted on FB that there should be a World Championship for players over 65. Sounds like a Division to me......
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    Shannonmiles
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    I find most people who can't understand my points are ones who are very successful.


    Laughing Laughing Laughing I don't get where you are coming from 90% of the time and I SUCK at darts! Most of the time in tournaments I'm a bag of nerves that would be better served playing bingo....... I live vicariously through the success of my children. That however does not change my view point on this game one bit. To be as good as you CAN be...to try as hard as you can......and back down from no one. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Shannonmiles
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    One addition to your 'artificially leveled playing field' comment - what people who fall far short of the gifted players get frustrated at is the fact that those genetically talented shooters did nothing themselves to gain that advantage. The field was unlevel for an unfair reason to start with, something out of their control.


    Tell me you don't really believe this non sense! Pretty Please! Come on now!...... What a convenient excuse! “He is just naturally better than me!” Because obviously we KNOW it can’t have anything to do with…. I don’t know……. Maybe he tries harder…..or here is a CRAZY thought.... practices more! I believe that ANYONE without a serious PHYSICAL problem can be a VERY good player if the effort is given to be so. To that end I once played a guy with no HANDS! He was pretty damn good (I guess it was all of his NATURAL talent that over came his handicap Rolling Eyes ) Waaaaa! Crying or Very sad He's just better than me Waaaaaa! He comes by it naturally Crying or Very sad Waaaaaaa! The injustice of it all! Waaaaaa! Crying or Very sad What a freakin cop out! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    "back down from no one"... hmhmmmmm..... what about the winner's perspective?

    I love playing, I love shooting against friends, but I don't like consistently winning easily against anyone. If you are playing and getting beaten easily by certain people, apart from them enjoying your company, aren't you boring them to death?

    While you are taking on your challenge, you are denying them one.

    Besides, you will never get good at doubling out cuz you are never shooting for any. Razz Laughing
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    If you are playing and getting beaten easily by certain people, apart from them enjoying your company, aren't you boring them to death?


    I've been called a lot of things...... boring is not one of them! Very Happy Laughing

    To answer your question.... if someone is "bored" by playing me then they should quit playing me. However, I will NEVER get bored by having the good fortune to have the opportunity to get better by playing a great player. I will play them until their arm falls off or they quit. When being put in the position of the "good" player I will always play as long as they want. Guys did it for me... I consider it a privilege to pass that on.
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:

    Tell me you don't really believe this non sense! Pretty Please! Come on now!...... What a convenient excuse! “He is just naturally better than me!” Because obviously we KNOW it can’t have anything to do with….


    Of course it has something to do with it. Of course the top pros have more natural talent than the average darter. Otherwise anyone who practiced properly more than, say, Adrian Lewis or James Wade, would be better than they are. I've never heard of a pro practicing 12 hours a day, so if a person does that, they should within time be the top of the heap, then????

    How much of a difference it makes varies though. I have overcome some local people, who were clearly more natural able than I am, with practice, dedication and study of the game and it's tools. But, there are other players I cannot hope to match no matter how many hours I put in.

    I think we repeatedly seem to disagree, SM, simply because you take issues to be completely black and white. I believe there are many degrees of each issue we hash out. I definitely agree with most of your points in principle, but not across the board.

    I'd sincerely like to hear why you think you are not currently a match for Chitown, and if you think you could better him in time.
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    dsm1mtm wrote:
    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player.


    Maybe you should say some or most soft tip players. I would love to play against some of the best this country has to offer every day. I'll take the butt whoopins, but I KNOW it would make me better. I resent that you put anyone that plays soft tip into the sandbagger, crybaby, handicap basket. CAUSE IT IS TOTAL BS!!!!


    OK...... "Most" Rolling Eyes feel better?


    Nice response. Typical. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    BTW Shannonmiles since you have such a ("hardcore" Rolling Eyes ) spirit about wanting to get better. You should play Phil Taylor for $1000 bucks a game. It will only make you better right? If you aren't willing to do that you must be afraid to get better. Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Last edited by dsm1mtm on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    dwalsh wrote:
    This is a little off topic.Rob you startd darts just a few years ago,I believe.You played against some of the best players in Boston as you learned and you ended up playing on teams with some of the best shots around very early in your development.That means you were thrown to the wolves very quickly...do you feel you would be a better player today if you started in a lower division and worked your way up,or was being thrown to the wolves the key to your development?


    You're still on topic, imo, DW, as I think we are defining the reasons why people might not be playing.

    While Rob probably did develop faster because he entered against stronger opposition, the real question is, 'would he have developed either way?'. If he had, these questions have no bearing on the divisional/handicapping subject, he became a very good player. He didn't become a very good player, imo, because he faced tougher shooters, he become a very good player faster because he faced tougher shooters.

    I think we are discussing the players who will top out at a B level or lower, regardless of when and where they play, based upon genetic talent and life limitations on their opportunity to improve.

    I think the top players are still playing, it is the masses of lesser talented darters who are dropping away.


    interesting post dw an bh... get ready for life through rob's eyes... Shocked

    generally speaking i would say it all depends on the person. regardless of talent or ability to get better...

    my attitude to want to win regardless of who i am playing against was certainly not born in me via darts... i had grown up challenging myself in every other sport/board game/ etc. i played to be the best that I could be... anythign from chess to basketball... ( i was very good at chess back in the day!)

    that meant doing things like telling my mom to pick me up 1 hour or more after practice ends so i could play more on my own or with the other kids that stayed for extra pratice... saving evey penny i earned for the year and paying for sporting camps... etc..

    i translated that general attitude to darts.
    i had gone to the sill a couple times here and there and thrown some bar darts with my buddies while killing time and throwing a few back...
    after i quite my second job... ( i was working 75 hours a week to make ends meet but finally paid off college) henry asked me to join his "C" team... i said sure why not... after all without work i had nothing else going on tuesday nights...
    about a week later i was told the team "got bumped" to "A" (the highest at the time)... (funny how that happens today still and i read about the biotching)
    at the time of that announcement in late december of 2006 henry was better than me and he was affraid of what he thought "a" was...
    i was not affraid of anything but loosing...
    so i went to the bar litterally every day until the season started... and continued to go every day until june of 2007...
    i won 70% of my matches that year and i was hunrgy to get better... i wanted to draw out talent to play against... so i started a LOD at the sill that i funded with my OWN MONEY!!! (i could never get ahold of the owner for him to pitch in... )
    week after week i found myself and whomever i got drawn with in the winner circle.. so i would go home with an extra $20 every thursday after two rounds were done (not many showed up and i ran it for a year before i gave up on getting a big crowd)...
    August of 2007 i decided to start asking the good shooters who was the "best" in the area... one name that was consistently mentioned was BOBCAT... so i sent him a PM on SEWA and asked him to practice with me ... he said he would give it a try once and see how good i am since he had heard about me from GT.... i played my heart out and we pushed eachother back and forth that first day... i won about 45% of the 501... but only 1 out of 10 or so games of cricket... i was WORRIED i didnt do well enough for him to want to practice more with me... but we talked at the end and set up regualr practices... i was STOKED... i still rememebr calling my mom and trying to explain to her that i was playing with a great player and hearing her try to be excited for me...

    the rest is history...
    i STILL practice more than most in this area... and i am STILL improving...

    BUT to answer your question DW... with my particular attititude as you can see... i think i would have developed into a "top" shooter either way...
    in my head i still have a long way to go...

    i have stated on here and in person...my GOAL is to get to a 84PPR consistently... and i intend to reach it Cool Cool Cool Cool
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    and furthermore... i would go out on a limb and say that shannonmiles merely wishes many more people thought like me in that regard...

    and quite frankly.. so do I...

    after all once i finally reach my 84 i dont want to be told i am too good to play without a handicap... Shocked
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    rob wrote:
    and furthermore... i would go out on a limb and say that shannonmiles merely wishes many more people thought like me in that regard...

    and quite frankly.. so do I...



    I wish more players wanted to go all out too. I don't like handicapping either. Unfortunately, in soft tip that is reality. Any person can deny the reality of things as much as they want, but it doesn't change it. One can only hope to be the catalyst to change things. But looking at a group of people as all being a certain way, is BS. And yes that last sentence was aimed at your points Shannonmiles.
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dsm1mtm wrote:
    rob wrote:
    and furthermore... i would go out on a limb and say that shannonmiles merely wishes many more people thought like me in that regard...

    and quite frankly.. so do I...



    I wish more players wanted to go all out too. I don't like handicapping either. Unfortunately, in soft tip that is reality. Any person can deny the reality of things as much as they want, but it doesn't change it. One can only hope to be the catalyst to change things. But looking at a group of people as all being a certain way, is BS. And yes that last sentence was aimed at your points Shannonmiles.


    see that's the thing... i dont think you necisarrily need to go "all out"... you do however NEED to want to be the best YOU can be...
    that's all i ever wanted...

    only thing for me personally is that i believe if i play darts the best that I can play them... then no one will beat me...


    heck i once had a 12, 14, 12 darters back to back to back.. not many people in the world will beat that in two out of three... (admittedly it is by far my best three games in a row ever!!!) but point is if i did it once then i CAN do it.. now i just need to find a way to do it more often. and more consistently.

    i used that same line of logic to talk myself into paying to play in the US open in 2007 a mere 5 months after i picked up the sport simply cuz i threw a couple180's and a 14 dart game... the experience was humbling... and gave me more reason to keep practicing... so it was good!
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    Shannonmiles
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dsm1mtm wrote:
    Shannonmiles wrote:
    dsm1mtm wrote:
    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player.


    Maybe you should say some or most soft tip players. I would love to play against some of the best this country has to offer every day. I'll take the butt whoopins, but I KNOW it would make me better. I resent that you put anyone that plays soft tip into the sandbagger, crybaby, handicap basket. CAUSE IT IS TOTAL BS!!!!


    OK...... "Most" Rolling Eyes feel better?


    Nice response. Typical. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

    BTW Shannonmiles since you have such a ("hardcore" Rolling Eyes ) spirit about wanting to get better. You should play Phil Taylor for $1000 bucks a game. It will only make you better right? If you aren't willing to do that you must be afraid to get better. Laughing Laughing Laughing


    Rolling Eyes I would not play ANYONE for a thousand bucks a game. But I would play Phil or YOU for beers until you or I or Phil could not drink anything more. It not that I'm "hardcore" its that I'm not afraid to lose to anyone. My ego is not so fragile that I must win every game I play. Rolling Eyes
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    This to me is an old wives tale...playing for money does not make you better. In fact, I have seen guys with money beat guys without it, just because they raised the stakes so high. Its false pressure its not the pressure of hitting the darts that gets to you its the amount of money.
    Playing in competitions are completely different.

    I try to win and win big each and every time I play whether I am playing the bartender or PDC no. 1. The idea that there has to be something on it to try or play well is simply the wrong attitude. I made a lot of money when I first came to Columbus off people who were going to "teach" me for $5 a leg.

    Oh and while on that subject if I ever do play for money we are not going double or nothing after I have won 5 legs straight. You don't get your money back if I have one bad leg!

    Moral of the story

    Playing Phil Taylor day after day is what makes you better...not the 1000 per leg.



    my .02cents on that
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Gordon_Dixon wrote:
    This to me is an old wives tale...playing for money does not make you better. In fact, I have seen guys with money beat guys without it, just because they raised the stakes so high. Its false pressure its not the pressure of hitting the darts that gets to you its the amount of money.
    Playing in competitions are completely different.

    I try to win and win big each and every time I play whether I am playing the bartender or PDC no. 1. The idea that there has to be something on it to try or play well is simply the wrong attitude. I made a lot of money when I first came to Columbus off people who were going to "teach" me for $5 a leg.

    Oh and while on that subject if I ever do play for money we are not going double or nothing after I have won 5 legs straight. You don't get your money back if I have one bad leg!

    Moral of the story

    Playing Phil Taylor day after day is what makes you better...not the 1000 per leg.



    my .02cents on that
    Nice post Gordon. I do think the $1000 bucks a leg was not meant literally but more as a silly dig at me for what the poster obviously perceives as my arrogance. To him I will say I put my money where my mouth is in regards to darts more than most. I spend thousands upon thousands every year playing this game with my family in events all over this country. I have NO idea who you are. Perhaps one day if you make it to a tournament you should introduce yourself.
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    This has been one of the best threads on SEWA in awhile, and it offers food for thought to all who play the game. I think that it really illustrates the variety of attitudes that people hold about the game. One end of the spectrum it seems to be more about darts being an ideal /standard that should be revered in it's purist form. At the other end of that range is the attitude that darts should be taken as we find it... enjoyed for for the benefits that it provides each individual; social connections, personal achievement, enjoyment of seeing others do well, being part of something that takes a special king of person to love.

    All who persist at the game do great benefit to us all regardless of their personal motives and ideals, but it's those personal motivations that reward us and keep all of us coming back to the oche.
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dsm1mtm wrote:
    But looking at a group of people as all being a certain way, is BS. And yes that last sentence was aimed at your points Shannonmiles.
    I retracted and said "most" Laughing Dude...... I can only go on what I see. My personal experience ALL OVER the world has shown me that soft tip players in “GENERAL” have a certain mentality. I calls them likes I sees them!

    Rolling Eyes
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    KopRalph11
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    This has been one of the best threads on SEWA in awhile, and it offers food for thought to all who play the game..


    Have to agree DT
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