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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Darts is dying in Columbus!!??
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    Darts is dying in Columbus!!??
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    That is good news. Where are your leagues?

    Southern MA, &c.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    Here's the sad fact: among all the things already mentioned here; those involved in darts are the people who have been at the game for a long time. There are very few younger people getting into the game/sport.


    In my mind we have come full circle to the points I tried to make a couple of years ago here on SEWA which made me a pariah in the minds of many. The ….everyone gets a trophy…..there are no losers….everyone gets to feel great about themselves mentality is on full display. This abomination against the real world is why soft tip grows and steel in many areas is dying. The younger generation DEMANDS they “be given a chance to compete on equal terms” if not afforded this benefit they simply will refuse to take part. It is an entitlement mentality that permeates our entire culture. People defend it as a way to “grow the game” to get “better participation”. However, it is really merely a symptom of what it wrong with our world exposed in the microcosm of darts. The “Greatest Generation” is gone. Their work ethic is gone. Their desire to be the best is gone. People would much rather take a hand out than work for anything. You can extend this from a simple game of darts to the welfare system that is ruining this country. We have managed to breed out a good chunk of the fight that was once in us. All that is left is………soft tip……and the entitlement mentality.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The "Pink Hat" society..If its not going their way their not going... Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Exactly Shannonmiles Wink
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    and the fact that overall we have become a society of thin skinned whiny babies that need to be spoon fed their successes. A society that FEARS failure. So instead of showing up and TRYING to bring ourselves up to the high bar set by the best our game has to offer...... we try to justify attempting to "level the playing field" to placate this lowest common denominator as a way to "grow the game". Sickening. Really and truly sickening.


    You can curse the darkness or light a candle...

    Darts is in competition with a number of other hobbies and pastimes for survival. We just have to realize that the world is changing and that we must be prepared to fight to get new players into the sport.

    BlackHorse wrote:


    Giving the average, and even less than average player a place to play and have fun does not water the game down. It discovers more talented darters. It pays the bills. It creates a fan base. We can't change the mentality of the whole continent ourselves, but we can instill values and encourage striving for success in those around us - that's what mentoring does, that's what showing weaker darters how to improve does. If people have left the game, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. What matters is how we can bring them back today. So, what ideas do you have?


    Again you are right on point BH! We have to take new players how we find them, and groom the best of them for the top levels of the game, and just let the rest hang out and enjoy themselves.

    ... and sometimes seeded blind draws launch some beginners onto a higher road bound for greater skill and accomplishment.


    Taechon wrote:
    Here is my take on darts night. The first thing to do is to make sure that the blind draws are a lot of fun. This is a Saturday or Friday night out on the town for most people and the goal of the blind draw is as much to offer a competition as it is to attract new players. Your top players are there for the competition; however, the novices are looking for a night on the town that is fun and an opportunity to meet with friends and have a few beers.

    ...

    The final thing is for the person running the tournament to act like an MC. Announcing events, boards, giving explinations, interacting with the shooters. A microphone with a long cord is essential. People want to be entertained! It is not just about darts.

    (Just my thoughts.)


    There's a ring of truth to this... people are draw to fun and entertaining activities.

    barjo wrote:


    It has nothing to do with DUI laws because those have been in effect for at least 20 years and more. It's also been reported that most places that fought against smoking laws have not done less business, but have actually done more. That may vary from locale to locale, but overall it seems to be true.


    That and the fact that bowling and APA pool leagues are growing in my area (not to mention that both APA pool leagues and bowling leagues have handicaps).


    The struggle that faces dart leagues these days is to put a product out there that will attract both the top level player and the beer guzzling "in it for the fun" folks who don't want to commit there lives to the game of darts.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    Here's the sad fact: among all the things already mentioned here; those involved in darts are the people who have been at the game for a long time. There are very few younger people getting into the game/sport.


    In my mind we have come full circle to the points I tried to make a couple of years ago here on SEWA which made me a pariah in the minds of many. The ….everyone gets a trophy…..there are no losers….everyone gets to feel great about themselves mentality is on full display. This abomination against the real world is why soft tip grows and steel in many areas is dying. The younger generation DEMANDS they “be given a chance to compete on equal terms” if not afforded this benefit they simply will refuse to take part. It is an entitlement mentality that permeates our entire culture. People defend it as a way to “grow the game” to get “better participation”. However, it is really merely a symptom of what it wrong with our world exposed in the microcosm of darts. The “Greatest Generation” is gone. Their work ethic is gone. Their desire to be the best is gone. People would much rather take a hand out than work for anything. You can extend this from a simple game of darts to the welfare system that is ruining this country. We have managed to breed out a good chunk of the fight that was once in us. All that is left is………soft tip……and the entitlement mentality.


    If you could roll the world back 30 years I'm sure that everything would be fine, but we can't. So our choices are to adapt and grown the game, or sit in the corner and whine while or sport dies. To me the reality is that there will always be a split between soft-tip and steel, but the numbers of cross overs will continue to grow. We as dart players can't get stuck in thinking about how much we hate the way things have changed, but how can we keep the game alive.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    GeorgeSilberzah wrote:
    From another perspective. I've been visiting a few of the places where I cut my teeth in darts. I've been doing some checking on market research for sales of darts supplies (and books). I've looked at average age of people involved in darts.
    Here's the sad fact: among all the things already mentioned here; those involved in darts are the people who have been at the game for a long time. There are very few younger people getting into the game/sport. Those who might are from the texting/ipod generation who spend their time at those things. Games etc. held in their hand, life on-line. Darts is a boring thing to do for them.
    Each of the dart leagues I've spoken with, soft and steel, see their enrollment declining, with the exception of one league in Trenton NJ. That league has a couple of fire brands who promote the game hard, continually, and even for them it's one and two people at a time.
    My very favorite bar, and mainstay of darts, is changing into a lounge kind of place, away from a sports/darts kind of place simply because there isn't interest enough to bring in people - it's change or go out of business.


    Three years ago the Ventura County Dart Association was down to 5 teams, and things were looking bleak. However aggressive marketing has brought us to 14 teams for the last two seasons. I expect more teams next season!
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:
    [ We as dart players can't get stuck in thinking about how much we hate the way things have changed, but how can we keep the game alive.


    It is with this statement that I disagree. That’s the great thing about these forums…….. differing opinions. I flatly refuse to support a game that “Punishes” players for getting better and rewards mediocrity. As far as I’m concerned…… if steel tip dies…..darts die…..full stop. If you think legions of happily mediocre coin dropping drones are our darts saviors then we simply could not disagree more.
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    Dart_talker wrote:
    [ We as dart players can't get stuck in thinking about how much we hate the way things have changed, but how can we keep the game alive.


    It is with this statement that I disagree. That’s the great thing about these forums…….. differing opinions. I flatly refuse to support a game that “Punishes” players for getting better and rewards mediocrity. As far as I’m concerned…… if steel tip dies…..darts die…..full stop. If you think legions of happily mediocre coin dropping drones are our darts saviors then we simply could not disagree more.


    I don't see this as a conversation about who is right or wrong, I'm seeing it as where do we find new enthusiastic blood for the game of darts.

    Some really talented baseball players started out playing softball, and some talented football players come from high schools that only played flag football. They had talent and developed... we should not look down on those who come to the game form different starting points.

    Our league has been lucky enough to get some really good soft-tip players to take up the steel-tip game, and they in turn are bring more soft-tip players to steel-tip.

    I don't think that steel-tip darts will die if we keep bringing new folks to the game and let everyone find their own level. The cream will always rise to the top.
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Perhaps the "cream" is the topic of contention. Perhaps we differ on how much cream there should be in the game.

    It seems to me that many people think you can rise to the top simply by showing up and putting in lots of practice. I disagree with this, if we are talking about becoming very good, like SuperA quality.

    I believe that the average darter, starting from scratch with a good body and good health, with a regular practice regimen and some dedication would achieve basic A Division status. I do not believe that every average person can become a SuperA player. I do not like statements that suggest the player is slacking or undedicated or wimping out should they not be able to become a SuperA shooter.

    Consequently, I consider statements that suggest the game should or even could have copious amounts of "cream" to be unrealistic and overly demanding on the players.

    That is why I consider that there will be a large base of average shooters, lots of C and B players. Given all the reasons why they cannot attain a higher skill level, I believe the average player coming into the game will stay less than an A player.

    And so, in the context that this is a game and not a training program for elite shooters who will defend their country, I feel people should be allowed to enjoy themselves without pressure to reach excellence in the sport.

    There is now and there will continue to be the "cream" that rise to the top. But any inference that the "cream" should be more than a small percentage of the overall player population is unfairly demanding imo.
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:
    There is now and there will continue to be the "cream" that rise to the top. But any inference that the "cream" should be more than a small percentage of the overall player population is unfairly demanding


    BH I agree 100% that each player will develop within their own natural ability. They will be the best they CAN be IF given the opportunity to do so. In my most humble of opinions this is done by NOT putting people in a position that rewards mediocrity i.e. handicaps or bazillions of “developmental stratifications” e.g. a, b, c, d, e, f, divisions. Good talent is developed not unlike steel is forged…..in a blast furnace of competition. Anything other than the best competition develops MEDIOCRE players. The big problem with MY idea is that our current culture has produced a pack of people that are by in large a huge collection of hand out collecting , cry baby sissies that have no problem with being mediocre as long as they don’t get their feelings hurt . Which is why soft tip grows and steel tip fades………………………………………but this does not change the fact that ………..any REAL dart player would rather have a dart jammed into his/her ocular cavity before they would take a HANDICAP from anyone.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    BlackHorse wrote:
    There is now and there will continue to be the "cream" that rise to the top. But any inference that the "cream" should be more than a small percentage of the overall player population is unfairly demanding


    BH I agree 100% that each player will develop within their own natural ability. They will be the best they CAN be IF given the opportunity to do so. In my most humble of opinions this is done by NOT putting people in a position that rewards mediocrity i.e. handicaps or bazillions of “developmental stratifications” e.g. a, b, c, d, e, f, divisions. Good talent is developed not unlike steel is forged…..in a blast furnace of competition. Anything other than the best competition develops MEDIOCRE players. The big problem with MY idea is that our current culture has produced a pack of people that are by in large a huge collection of hand out collecting , cry baby sissies that have no problem with being mediocre as long as they don’t get their feelings hurt . Which is why soft tip grows and steel tip fades………………………………………but this does not change the fact that ………..any REAL dart player would rather have a dart jammed into his/her ocular cavity before they would take a HANDICAP from anyone.


    This is not ONLY about developing the best possible players to compete on the world stage, it's ALSO about building a knowledgeable base of players that will support the sport.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dart_talker wrote:

    This is not ONLY about developing the best possible players to compete on the world stage, it's ALSO about building a knowledgeable base of players that will support the sport.


    In my opinion there is no difference. I feel you either want to play to be the best you CAN be or you are wasting your time. With that being said..... in my opinion most folks are wasting their time......These half assed players don't "support the sport" What they support is the vending companies that get rich off the coin drop. The vending companies that pander to the legions of the "I wanna have a chance to win without working for it" crowd. As for the soft tip gent in the "non-handicapped" league...that jumped in the other thread......... I give you complete props.... The problem is NOT with soft tip darts or the soft tip board....it is with the handicap mentality. Which sad to say is the prevalent mentality in this country. Which is the reason by the way….why we get our butts handed to us on a regular basis by our UK brethren. Steel tip WILL go the way of the dodo because by its nature it does not pander. It’s a sad fact that it will die out and be replaced with a retarded cousin. I personally will then just quit playing because anything that you don't give your best to is not worth doing in the first place. Being the best in soft tip makes you a pariah……just ask any number of top soft tip players how they are treated……..As an aside to this....the ONLY steel tip league in my STATE is a handicap league. I will continue to play in my living room... Rolling Eyes well thats not true.... I will drive hours to play real darts.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I not too long ago was in one of the biggest (by number of teams supported) Medalist bars in the United States….. the Cloud 9 bar in Kent Washington. I was there for a number of days. A great bar by the way if you ever get up that way…….. My problem was that it was filled with “dart players” that didn’t want to play darts. I shot for hours on end by myself. I was watched by dozens of players….do you think a single person asked me to play a game? Nope. Do you think a single person I asked to play accepted? Nope. Was I asking to play for a $1000 bucks a game? Nope. Was I asking to play even for a beer? Nope. Did I offer to pay the coin drop? Yep. They simply would not play. Why? You would have to ask them. I showered that day….so I’m pretty sure it wasn’t that……. If that would have been a steel tip bar that had three people in it I could have got games all night. I know this is a fact because I’ve been to dart bars all over this planet. Contrary to what many of you might think I’m not that big of a monster. I actually get along just fine with most people I meet. I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player. They are afraid to lose if they don't think they have a fighting chance to win. It is just so frustrating and sad. It is so backwards! You should WANT to play the biggest baddest dude in the joint! I cannot understand not wanting to. I was in a steel tip bar in Spain a few years ago. Those dudes started a list to get to play against me.......I'm no superstar but I was the best player in the bar.....and they lined up to play me.






    Some of my Spanish friends......
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    Last edited by Shannonmiles on Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:

    I feel you either want to play to be the best you CAN be or you are wasting your time. With that being said..... in my opinion most folks are wasting their time...

    Most people are wasting their time, SM, they are simply passing time in an enjoyable pursuit. Their aim (or crime in your eyes Razz Wink Laughing ) is only to have fun. And so most are a resounding success! And if they are, darts is!

    Extrapolating from your thought, if we are judging people on being the best they can be, darts is hardly the best venture. As much as I love throwing darts, it is far from the most lofty use of anyone's time. I say this because overall I think you are scrutinizing a game too severely.


    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I personally will then just quit playing because anything that you don't give your best to is not worth doing in the first place.

    One of my points is that a lot of people are putting a great deal into their game, maybe not their absolute best, but a lot of time, practice, thought and even money. But because of a limited amount of base talent, money, time and because of real commitments, they are not very good compared with other people. They are, imo, a great success when compared with their true measuring sticks, themselves.

    I want them to come out and play, enjoy themselves, make friends, support their venues, contribute to the economy, swell the number of dart players and do so without being looked down upon because they can't compete at all with their local versions of Chitown and DWalsh. They have worked, for an example, to become a good B shooter and they deserve respect for that accomplishment. And they most certainly should be permitted to have fun without condemnation.



    Let me offer an alternative perspective on handicapping - not the divisional type, but the actual soft tip handicapping numbering system. Now, this isn't to justify the whole system, it's just to consider it in a different light. In any closed environment that most local dart regions are, there are the known perpetual winners. Oh, the champ might come from a field of as many as 10 players, but yeah, he's in that group. It can be even smaller in some areas. The occasional shooter might have a hot run and challenge them, but even if he cracks the elite group once, there is no guarantee he will ever do it again. It's getting kinda boring... even for the top guns!

    For the same reason that LOD numbers drop, I think the overall numbers are dropping. Same ol', same ol'. That's why each year the top MMDL teams swap players in a frenzy - otherwise the same coupla teams win. Even so, there is a large amount of repetition going on if you consider the players themselves.

    Now, add in handicapping to a tournament. The champ who used to yawn his way through the first four rounds or whatever only to play the same familiar faces in the top 8, now has to bring his SuperA game in the first round, against one of a large field of players. Every round is exciting. You are talking about having to be your best, well here you have it, every time. And you are competing against yourself really, not against an inferior foe who was simply unlucky to be born much less gifted than you.

    The Level 11 player who took out a 16 knows he didn't beat the guy on base skill level. But that field was never fair to begin with. He does know however that he threw his very best and was rewarded for it. Contrary to your posts, not all players win a trophy just by walking into the building.

    One last point in that scenario - a gifted shooter raises his game from a starting Level of 15 to a Level 17. An averagely talented darter raises his game from a starting Level of 5 to a Level 13. Who is the most dedicated player?? Which person has given his best to the game??? Which darter deserves the most recognition?!!

    By comparison, I hear you saying that in the end all basketball players should be 7'2" or not play at all.

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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    BlackHorse wrote:

    By comparison, I hear you saying that in the end all basketball players should be 7'2" or not play at all.


    You have not understood a single thing I've said. I give up.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    BlackHorse wrote:

    By comparison, I hear you saying that in the end all basketball players should be 7'2" or not play at all. [/color]


    You have note understood a single thing I've said. I give up.


    i believe he is saying even if you are 5 foot 11 you should be willing to drive to the paint like allen iverson against yao ming...

    or more importantly that everyone should be playing on a ten foot hoop from the beginning...
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    This is a little off topic.Rob you startd darts just a few years ago,I believe.You played against some of the best players in Boston as you learned and you ended up playing on teams with some of the best shots around very early in your development.That means you were thrown to the wolves very quickly...do you feel you would be a better player today if you started in a lower division and worked your way up,or was being thrown to the wolves the key to your development?
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    IMHO... the more folks you expose to the game, the better the chance you will find some truly talented players that can compete at the highest level.
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    dsm1mtm
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:

    The problem is NOT with soft tip darts or the soft tip board....it is with the handicap mentality.
    Thank you for saying that.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    Which is the reason by the way….why we get our butts handed to us on a regular basis by our UK brethren.

    Couldn't disagree more. They beat our best because their best are better than our best. End of story. Our top steel players don't play in handicapped steel leagues for the most part, and they don't have the attitude of wanting to be mediocre. They want to be the best and work hard at their game. It's just that in a medium to long format our best can't compete with their best, because their best or better.

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    It’s a sad fact that it will die out and be replaced with a retarded cousin.
    Wow!! Just when I thought that your whole rant against soft tip wasn't just because you don't like it, I am thinking I was wrong. Laughing
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    I think it as simple as..... soft tip players are AFRAID to play people they think MIGHT be a better player.


    Maybe you should say some or most soft tip players. I would love to play against some of the best this country has to offer every day. I'll take the butt whoopins, but I KNOW it would make me better. I resent that you put anyone that plays soft tip into the sandbagger, crybaby, handicap basket. CAUSE IT IS TOTAL BS!!!!
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Shannonmiles wrote:
    BlackHorse wrote:

    By comparison, I hear you saying that in the end all basketball players should be 7'2" or not play at all.


    You have not understood a single thing I've said. I give up.


    Yes, I have, don't exaggerate... again.. lol.

    (and it wouldn't be the first time you've given up here... Razz Laughing )

    Let me expand then..... a 5'4" player with a heart of steel wants to play basketball. He picks up the game, loves it, plays it all he can. He is in a league with no divisions, no handicaps, no separation of players whatsoever. Despite developing into being a terrific player, his genetics overrule his heart and he gets smashed against his average opponent who towers over him. In the end, he quits going out to league, it simply is no fun. Especially if that league made him pay money to the 7'2" winners each time.

    A local organizer decides to add divisions based on height categories. SM says, no frickin way, every one should compete on the same field, same rules, same league, or they aren't trying, or they should quit.

    He quits. 90% of the players quit. The 7'2" players and a small handful of very talented, almost as tall players are all that are left.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dwalsh wrote:
    This is a little off topic.Rob you startd darts just a few years ago,I believe.You played against some of the best players in Boston as you learned and you ended up playing on teams with some of the best shots around very early in your development.That means you were thrown to the wolves very quickly...do you feel you would be a better player today if you started in a lower division and worked your way up,or was being thrown to the wolves the key to your development?


    You're still on topic, imo, DW, as I think we are defining the reasons why people might not be playing.

    While Rob probably did develop faster because he entered against stronger opposition, the real question is, 'would he have developed either way?'. If he had, these questions have no bearing on the divisional/handicapping subject, he became a very good player. He didn't become a very good player, imo, because he faced tougher shooters, he become a very good player faster because he faced tougher shooters.

    I think we are discussing the players who will top out at a B level or lower, regardless of when and where they play, based upon genetic talent and life limitations on their opportunity to improve.

    I think the top players are still playing, it is the masses of lesser talented darters who are dropping away.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    What a load of horse "BEEP"
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I know that my opinion really does not matter much, but in the end it comes down to what we can make happen to keep the game alive, and develop new talent.
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