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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Should S.A teams break up to mentor the A division players?
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    Should S.A teams break up to mentor the A division players?
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    Post new topic   Reply to topic    Dartplayer Dot Net Forum Index -> MINUTE MAN Dart League (MMDL)
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    Should S.A. teams break up to mentor the A division players?
    Yes
    21%
     21%  [ 8 ]
    No
    71%
     71%  [ 27 ]
    Undecided
    7%
     7%  [ 3 ]
    Total Votes : 38

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    Chitown599
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:35 am    Post subject: Should S.A teams break up to mentor the A division players? Reply with quote

    There is no right or wrong answer here. It is simply everyone's opinion. What ever your opinion is, please give your reasons.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    no!
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I don't think one has anything to do with the other... A good mentor has little to do with being one a winning team.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    While I might have liked the sound of this before playing in Super A this season, from what I've seen/know now I think this would be a bad idea. League nights aren't really structured to provide a forum for mentoring to happen. While advice can be offered (strategy) even the longer format doesn't provide enough darts against top-level competition for non-Super A shooters to get used to the different level of darts necessary to win consistently at this level.

    From my perspective, the only thing that will facilitate this level of consistency is to play alot of darts against top level players on occasions other than league. Unless you are a 'natural' you probably will not progress from an A/B shooter to a Super A shooter from only playing with Super A shooters on league nights alone.

    Again, I'm not saying mentoring can't or doesn't happen, but only that the format doesn't facilitate it.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    my opinion is no, and here are my reasons.

    1) To do so, some A division players may decide after a couple of weeks, that this just wasn't for them, and quit. They are not having fun. So you wind up breaking up your team for nothing.

    2) Why should top teams break up to do this. Most of the top teams were put together to win the State Championship. To break up, and add on inexperienced A players, would derail almost all hope of achieving this.

    3) I, like most other S.A. players have paid their dues, (losing games, and putting in their time) to earn the right to play with, or on any team they choose. The best way to learn, is by jumping right in, and learning from your losses.

    In other words, there are many other ways to mentor A div. players, or any level player for that matter, without having to break up your team.
    This can be done at LOD's, league night, before and during your match, meeting at a pub, and through MMDL Flight School.
    I don't know 1 S.A. player, who has ever told an A player or below, to stop asking him or her questions. Most of them will go out of their way to help.
    So if by my answer, I am deemed a player who just doesn't care about the MMDL, and it's future, especially the Super A division, I am sorry, but you couldn't be farther from the truth.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    calebjkeen wrote:
    While I might have liked the sound of this before playing in Super A this season, from what I've seen/know now I think this would be a bad idea. League nights aren't really structured to provide a forum for mentoring to happen. While advice can be offered (strategy) even the longer format doesn't provide enough darts against top-level competition for non-Super A shooters to get used to the different level of darts necessary to win consistently at this level.

    From my perspective, the only thing that will facilitate this level of consistency is to play alot of darts against top level players on occasions other than league. Unless you are a 'natural' you probably will not progress from an A/B shooter to a Super A shooter from only playing with Super A shooters on league nights alone.

    Again, I'm not saying mentoring can't or doesn't happen, but only that the format doesn't facilitate it.



    Caleb great post and I agree.It is very hard to improve enough just on league darts alone to compete at the highest level offered.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    calebjkeen wrote:
    While I might have liked the sound of this before playing in Super A this season, from what I've seen/know now I think this would be a bad idea. League nights aren't really structured to provide a forum for mentoring to happen. While advice can be offered (strategy) even the longer format doesn't provide enough darts against top-level competition for non-Super A shooters to get used to the different level of darts necessary to win consistently at this level.

    From my perspective, the only thing that will facilitate this level of consistency is to play alot of darts against top level players on occasions other than league. Unless you are a 'natural' you probably will not progress from an A/B shooter to a Super A shooter from only playing with Super A shooters on league nights alone.

    Again, I'm not saying mentoring can't or doesn't happen, but only that the format doesn't facilitate it.



    I like your opinion caleb, but mentoring can be done in moderation, before and during a match. I have done this. But you are right, in saying there isn't enough time to make any substantial difference. Only time on the board will net results.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Maybe....teams in each division should send the top shooter up and the low shooter down, all divisions except for SA it would just be down and they would get a top A shooter in exchange. Unless this is supposed to be fun.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I don't think they should either but..........

    1) If you want better competition, there would have to be some sort of split
    Whether it be shorter rosters or some sort of draft or rating system and draft.

    2) If you don't want teams forced up, offer some other solution. Organize it and offer it to the BOD.

    3) While Caleb's point is a good one, the A shooters that probably would move up, are shooting in LOD's, tournaments, PDSL etc. so what's left beyond moving up.

    4) If 1 and 2 don't work for you. Stop complaining about the meaningless 14 weeks and the level of competition. ( it's not all of you, it's a very vocal few)

    5) someone please explain to me the difference between shortened rosters and splitting and adding A shooters to full rosters and keeping the same format and roster size. Is it the notion of having to carry the A shooters in matches? Because if the LOD's are any measurement, unless you draw a really marginal shooter, a
    top S.A. shooter paired with a good A shooter pretty much guarantee's your in the top two, so what would be the difference in league darts?
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    i voted yes but only to c an equalization of competition in the division.sort of like the NFL wanted with the salary cap.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    EMPHATICALLY NO!! Here is why:

    As one of the SA players in MMDL I do not agree with splitting up our teams to mentor A players. I think that any A player who wants to play in SA should seek out a SA team to play on or a SA player to mentor them and take them under their wing. League night is not for mentoring. I started in J division when I was 20. That was 20 years ago. I played for years moving up through the ranks and divisions with a number of different teams and teammates. That was fun, as I was bettering my game and progressing. But every Thursday thru Sunday of every week I had a mentor. A SA player who played me 40+ games a night 4 nights a week teaching me the ins and outs of cricket strategy and learning my outs in '01. That players name is Scott Rainville. That guy wore me out up and down the dartboard. I maybe won 2 games in 4 nights if I was lucky. That my friends is paying your dues. Thank you Scott. If Scott couldn't make it I played guys like Goodie (GeorgeCostanza) or Bruce Robbins (MrR09) and sometimes even the King, Dave Kelly.

    So do I think we need to split our teams up and take on the A players? No. But we definitely should be available to them should they want to learn the games on an off dart night. We all had mentors, we owe it to the younger players to help them along. Just not on a Tuesday night
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Great post Pat. I too had mentors. Their names were Butler, Umberger, and Kelly. They taught me the games strategies, and my outs in 01. I also learned a lot from Taylor the couple of times he stayed at the house.
    I have paid my dues 2 fold, and feel that is the only way to learn.
    I have always made myself available, any time I have been asked, whether it was to play a few games, come to my house, and now with the MMDL version of Flight School. This is my way of giving back, what was given to me. So that's why I voted no. Leagues should be kept separate, from mentoring.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    pmack81 wrote:
    EMPHATICALLY NO!! Here is why:

    As one of the SA players in MMDL I do not agree with splitting up our teams to mentor A players. I think that any A player who wants to play in SA should seek out a SA team to play on or a SA player to mentor them and take them under their wing. League night is not for mentoring. I started in J division when I was 20. That was 20 years ago. I played for years moving up through the ranks and divisions with a number of different teams and teammates. That was fun, as I was bettering my game and progressing. But every Thursday thru Sunday of every week I had a mentor. A SA player who played me 40+ games a night 4 nights a week teaching me the ins and outs of cricket strategy and learning my outs in '01. That players name is Scott Rainville. That guy wore me out up and down the dartboard. I maybe won 2 games in 4 nights if I was lucky. That my friends is paying your dues. Thank you Scott. If Scott couldn't make it I played guys like Goodie (GeorgeCostanza) or Bruce Robbins (MrR09) and sometimes even the King, Dave Kelly.

    So do I think we need to split our teams up and take on the A players? No. But we definitely should be available to them should they want to learn the games on an off dart night. We all had mentors, we owe it to the younger players to help them along. Just not on a Tuesday night


    Great post Pat... every word from top to bottom.

    IMHO, SA should be split up, voluntarily, into a larger number of smaller SA teams. The new smaller teams should be formed based on the preferences of team, not by league mandate.

    Smaller teams will create easier access to SA and will make the league more competitive throughout the regular season. I completely disagree with Jakesy would writes that smaller teams will not change the competitive balance. It will almost double the competitive matches during the regular season and it will spread out the talent for the playoffs.

    Just like water finds its level, so do dart players. Practice, play lucks, play tourneys, play PDSL, play MMDL, setup practice matches like the 40 games Pat plays whenever he gets a chance (as do I, Bill James, Junior, Bill Ford, John Rice, Bob Bachelor and the other SA guys in CT)... show you have the passion... show you have the committment... show you are an up and coming player... and you will find a team. Top players will go out of their way to play with (mentor) this kind of player. But we get to decide who we play with, not the BOD. I get the sense that guys are looking for a free ride... there is no free ride on this highway ... you have you put the gas in the tank to join the race.
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Abolutely not, as an A shooter I've paid some dues, Like Pat I went to LOD's and met up with friends who helped and are still helping me learn this game. Do I have the capabilities to get better and be a force in SA I WOULD HOPE SO

    I am making my marks kinda like a Dog on every hydrant, I've made a few people take notice and I still have alot of improving to do as evident by my performance last night in the PDSL where I was HORRENDOUS.

    SA Players are always willing to mentor and educate shooters such as myself, Pat and Ron Folger are two of those players who take the time to talk to me about darts, Pete Morrison and Dave Walsh are a couple others who would take the time and talk to me about strategies and techniques.

    To those players who want to get better take the time to introduce yourself to better calibre shooters, they are always willing to play and kick ur ***, only way to get better is to practice and play better competition
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Eddie_C wrote:
    Abolutely not, as an A shooter I've paid some dues, Like Pat I went to LOD's and met up with friends who helped and are still helping me learn this game. Do I have the capabilities to get better and be a force in SA I WOULD HOPE SO

    I am making my marks kinda like a Dog on every hydrant, I've made a few people take notice and I still have alot of improving to do as evident by my performance last night in the PDSL where I was HORRENDOUS.

    SA Players are always willing to mentor and educate shooters such as myself, Pat and Ron Folger are two of those players who take the time to talk to me about darts, Pete Morrison and Dave Walsh are a couple others who would take the time and talk to me about strategies and techniques.

    To those players who want to get better take the time to introduce yourself to better calibre shooters, they are always willing to play and kick ur ***, only way to get better is to practice and play better competition
    I would say no as well great posts bye everyone. Here is my reasoning from my individual stand point I have been playing in the MMDL since 1986 I played in B,C and D for the first 23 years or so. I was tired off the same competition at times I would be the only person winning 1 out off 11 games other times we would make it deep it to the playoffs and run out of gas. I was hoping our team would go up to A and Super A together we weren't good or strong enough to do it. Then I met Tony C from my team TC'S crew he convinced me to move up to A then Super A . Since playing at the highest level and the pdsl my game has become better and my average has improved. I really have not had any mentors I always thought that I was a dart better than my competition when I was playing B,C,D . Now that I am playing A and Super I can't seem to get past the top 8 in any tournaments but I am getting close. I have had the pleasure of meeting all the elite players and I know if I need mentoring they are all there to help. I want to beat these guys through practice and playing in the same league with these elite players will only better your game. I feel the way the top Super A teams are stacked up now and if players where to leave to mentor A players your team would become weaker and may not to be able to compete with the best Super A players available. We need all the Super A players to play together to keep this division because there are only so many to go around. Hope this all makes sense .
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Jeff, what do you constitute as a free ride? If remember correctly I've listened to two seasons of "there's no competition for 14 weeks", " there no incentive to show up if you already know the outcome", "The BOD has to stop forcing teams up" yada yada yada. But S.A has a need for the 4th teams that you complain about. So some people come on here and try to help come up with a solution no problem right? right, unless it's suggested that it might require some of the elite shooters making some sacrifices, then it's different.
    Sorry if i don't come on here and kiss a little S.A. arse, just not in my genetics.
    News flash, we don't have any problems in A division and below. We all play with our friends, we have a great time and it's pretty competitive across the board.
    So I don't think anyone will mind if you expand your division anyway you choose. I just hope the board doesn't force anyone up anymore.
    If a team assembles and wants to move up great. if not, go with what you've got. That should work in the S.Shore but i think the rest will have trouble if not now, down the road. I wonder why no one in A division tries to stack their teams for the sole purpose of winning championships. Plenty of us down here that have been playing for 20 years. hmmmmm
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    PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jakesy wrote:
    Jeff, what do you constitute as a free ride? If remember correctly I've listened to two seasons of "there's no competition for 14 weeks", " there no incentive to show up if you already know the outcome", "The BOD has to stop forcing teams up" yada yada yada. But S.A has a need for the 4th teams that you complain about. So some people come on here and try to help come up with a solution no problem right? right, unless it's suggested that it might require some of the elite shooters making some sacrifices, then it's different.
    Sorry if i don't come on here and kiss a little S.A. arse, just not in my genetics.
    News flash, we don't have any problems in A division and below. We all play with our friends, we have a great time and it's pretty competitive across the board.
    So I don't think anyone will mind if you expand your division anyway you choose. I just hope the board doesn't force anyone up anymore.
    If a team assembles and wants to move up great. if not, go with what you've got. That should work in the S.Shore but i think the rest will have trouble if not now, down the road. I wonder why no one in A division tries to stack their teams for the sole purpose of winning championships. Plenty of us down here that have been playing for 20 years. hmmmmm


    Jaksey, I respectfully disagree. You are passionate, but let's agree to disagree.

    When I play on Tuesday nights, I meet guys who a have a few drinks, play darts and have fun socializing. It is on SEWA where the discussion is so polarized. I don't hear anything like this on Tuesday nights. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I believe the state of affairs in SA is nowhere near as bad as you suggest.

    I have written many times what my opinion is. I believe SA should go to 4-man format/6-person teams. I believe anyone who wants to play SA should be allowed to. I believe no one should be forced to move up. I believe each team should form as they wish.

    My reference to the "free ride" referred to any path to SA that does not involve the time and effort Dave Walsh, Pat McKeon and I have written about.

    Jeff
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Jeff thank you very much. I have a lot of respect for you as i do Dave and many other S.A. shooters. I actually agree with you that 4-6 man rosters are the way to go and will solve the perceived problem in S.A. The only reason I was passionate about another solution is because some said, Dave correct me if I'm wrong please, that if you went to shortened rosters that they would move down to the lower divisions. That is what doesn't work for me. I feel the lower divisions have achieved a certain level of parity that would be upset if top S.A. shooters moved down. I practice hard and am willing to put in the time. Hopefully I'll have the chance to face you at your level someday.
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    who actually said they would move down if we shortened roster size? Just questioning what real SA teams would move to A rather than play in the division they belong in?
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jakesy wrote:
    correct me if I'm wrong please, that if you went to shortened rosters that they would move down to the lower divisions. That is what doesn't work for me. I feel the lower divisions have achieved a certain level of parity that would be upset if top S.A. shooters moved down.


    Jaksey, I did read one person on SEWA who stated he would move to A if the league went to 4/6 format. No disrespect to him, but I believe if he did move to A it would be becasue he wants to play in A... simple as that. In his case, perhaps it would be better for him. I don't know him well enough to know. But I would not sour on the whole 4/6 idea, based on his argument. Moving to SA may be the right thing for him, but it certainly is not the right thing for the majority of SA players.

    The thing is, no SA player would want to play in A. The atmosphere in the lower divisions is different. I am not saying the atmosphere is bad... I am just saying it is different. Plus, most of our dart-friends, the guys we hang out with in the current SA, tourneys, other leagues, lucks, etc., are in SA.

    4/6 man teams would have plently of room for up and coming players. Almost all the teams, with the exception of just a few would be looking for new, up and coming players. It would be more inclusive... and if you decide to go the route of forming your own team... it would make it easier to do so.
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    OK I asked this before and today someone PMed me asking about it again since last time I got no replies. What do people really see as being a problem with going to smaller rosters for SA?
    Benefits are evident, but what are the cons. Jakesy maybe you can list why you feel that smaller roster sizes aren't the answer? Adam...anyone really...???
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    DEREK
    SEWA Moderator (S-3)
    SEWA Moderator (S-3)


    Joined: May 21, 2007
    Posts: 6785
    Location: ROCKLAND

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I look at it like this...no matter what sport you play the very top levels are always smaller than the lower levels..so why not in the MMDL too...it is no secret the number of SA players that can compete with each other on a weekly basis is small. So why keep the roster size the same? Look at Football...there are no limits to roster size in high school, in Div 1 college there is a roster limit of 105 and then the pros the limit is decreased to 53...so why not the MMDL. We see this on a different scale with the number of divisions in the league...E and D and C have 3 or 4 divisions...up to A then only 2 then into SA with 1 but really only half a division since there are only 4 teams. Unless someone has played this format with only 3 other teams...they can't really say anything about the fact that some of the teams and players talk of boredom...and the shouldn't start to talk about whinning or complaining about it. They have not experienced it for themselves and have no footing to stand on when arguing the point.
    People are going to play with whoever they want for different reasons. The league has no say in this...and should never have a say in it unless they wanted to opt for a draft. (we know that won't happen). i play on my team because of friendships first and then also because we are very competative. PLayers of like caliber tend to hang together...we see each other at all the LODs and tournaments and have friendships that have grown out of that...and form teams based on these relationships. But if the roster size was cut..you would basically be able to field at a minimum 3 more teams if not a complete 8...some individuals may not have a spot on the team they want and may have to either join another group,start their own team, or just go to a different div. This i don't see as a problem. If a few young guns want to give it a whirl it is a hell of alot easier to find 4 to 5 like minded guys to join you than trying to field 9 and still be at all competative...it just makes sense...when the talent pool is as shallow as it is, it is silly to try to field 9 man teams when there will be 1 maybe 2 teams in each area that dominate. and then the ever revolving 4th place finisher...they don't want to be there. with 9 person rosters they have little chance. Unless they want to sit out there 3 worst every week. which is not fun for anyone involved. lets hear it...not just the endless flow of what ifs and maybes...but lets hear what is wraong with a short roster...what is the big flaw???
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    Eddie_C
    DART SGT. MAJOR
    DART SGT. MAJOR


    Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Iceberg wrote:


    The thing is, no SA player would want to play in A. The atmosphere in the lower divisions is different. I am not saying the atmosphere is bad... I am just saying it is different. Plus, most of our dart-friends, the guys we hang out with in the current SA, tourneys, other leagues, lucks, etc., are in SA.


    As someone who shot in SA last season, then lost two of our top shooters and now shooting in A, I couldn't agree anymore, last season in the playoffs I took Krueger to 3 games in Singles Cricket, this season I couldn't tell you 2 players from the opposing teams.

    How do you go from a playoff match against Freddy, B'Na, Sean Moran, Spin and Derek to showing up and throwing Darts, the competition and the constant bantering isn't the same. If you were to ask me today right now what level of darts I'll be shooting in the Fall I'd say SA whether I have to put my own team together and take our lumps for a couple seasons or someone finds it in their heart to think I am worthy of a spot on their roster
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    AmericanBadAss
    Senior Moderator Team SEWA Original
    Senior Moderator Team SEWA Original


    Joined: Jul 29, 2005
    Posts: 9283
    Location: East Bridgewater, MA

    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Derek, the con I see with smaller rosters is moving teams up. You force a team up and at the same time they have to cut up to 3 players from their team, that's a tough sell to say the least.
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    kirby
    SEWA Superuser (S-1)
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    Joined: Apr 26, 2006
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Eddie_C wrote:
    Iceberg wrote:


    The thing is, no SA player would want to play in A. The atmosphere in the lower divisions is different. I am not saying the atmosphere is bad... I am just saying it is different. Plus, most of our dart-friends, the guys we hang out with in the current SA, tourneys, other leagues, lucks, etc., are in SA.


    As someone who shot in SA last season, then lost two of our top shooters and now shooting in A, I couldn't agree anymore, last season in the playoffs I took Krueger to 3 games in Singles Cricket, this season I couldn't tell you 2 players from the opposing teams.

    How do you go from a playoff match against Freddy, B'Na, Sean Moran, Spin and Derek to showing up and throwing Darts, the competition and the constant bantering isn't the same. If you were to ask me today right now what level of darts I'll be shooting in the Fall I'd say SA whether I have to put my own team together and take our lumps for a couple seasons or someone finds it in their heart to think I am worthy of a spot on their roster



    Wow..you've come a long way since the "Sandbagging" days Eddie.. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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