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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Once a bust always a bust
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    Once a bust always a bust

     
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    overlord
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Once a bust always a bust Reply with quote

    I ask for rule clarification, and I know every league has different rules so I refer to the Darts Regulation Authority (used by the PDC)

    If I bust with my first dart can I dislodge it with my second and game shot with third. (I know this is highly unlikely but....hypothetically)

    the rules I feel that apply are:

    5.10.03 A “Throw” shall consist of a maximum of three darts thrown consecutively (without interruption for any throw by any other Player) by a Player unless a leg, set or match is completed in less than three darts thrown by that Player.

    5.10.05 Any dart bouncing off or falling out of the dartboard prior to being retrieved by the throwing Player after that Player’s Throw does not count and shall not be re-thrown.

    5.11.03 The “Bust” Rule shall apply, namely if a Player scores more than the number required then that score shall not count and the Player’s score shall revert back to the score the Player had prior to the Opponent’s last throw.


    So I interpret this to mean if when I retrieve my darts my score is a bust then it is a bust, but not until I retrieve them and I am allowed three darts.
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    GeorgeSilberzah
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Once a bust always a bust Reply with quote

    overlord wrote:
    I ask for rule clarification, and I know every league has different rules so I refer to the Darts Regulation Authority (used by the PDC)

    If I bust with my first dart can I dislodge it with my second and game shot with third. (I know this is highly unlikely but....hypothetically)

    the rules I feel that apply are:

    5.10.03 A “Throw” shall consist of a maximum of three darts thrown consecutively (without interruption for any throw by any other Player) by a Player unless a leg, set or match is completed in less than three darts thrown by that Player.

    5.10.05 Any dart bouncing off or falling out of the dartboard prior to being retrieved by the throwing Player after that Player’s Throw does not count and shall not be re-thrown.

    5.11.03 The “Bust” Rule shall apply, namely if a Player scores more than the number required then that score shall not count and the Player’s score shall revert back to the score the Player had prior to the Opponent’s last throw.


    So I interpret this to mean if when I retrieve my darts my score is a bust then it is a bust, but not until I retrieve them and I am allowed three darts.

    Yea - but, as soon as you have no score left, isn't the game over?
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As soon as you bust your turn is over so you wouldn't be able to throw any more darts to cause the first to dislodge.

    I actually had this happen in a match I was chalking where one player had 2 left, threw a dart that was just inside the wire for a bust and, in disgust, threw his next dart that just happened to hit in the D1 right above his first dart causing that first dart to fall out. The player tried to claim he had won, but I (as chalker and, basically, referee for the match) had already called his turn over when he busted. The tournament director was called over and confirmed my interpretation of the rules.
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    Tubby
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    something similar happened in our league, A player was going for the double 1, First dart was off the board, the second dart was a single one and he then turned around in disgust. when he turned back around the dart fell out (this took maybe a second). he then threw his next dart and won the match.

    I was unsure about the match and emailed ADO. According to their response a bust DOES not occur until you pull your darts. So in this situation he was in the right to throw his next dart. As far as a time frame they said there is an unwritten 15 sec rule to pull your darts.

    If you see the dart is hanging and jump up and down, or any other disturbance, it would be viewed as poor sportsmanship.

    As far as throwing to dislodge your dart, this is allowed as the bust does not occur until you PULL your darts.
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    KopRalph11
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    DRA rulebook

    5.10.05 Any dart bouncing off or falling out of the dartboard prior to being retrieved by the throwing Player after that Player’s Throw does not count and shall not be re-thrown

    So basically from what I understand. If you throw your dart and it lands in a bust. If out of some luck on the way to retrieve it, it falls out. Then you should be allowed to throw your remaining darts.
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    Chitown599
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    There is also the rule that states, all scores count, once the scorkeeper announces it. How would this apply to the dart falling out, after the score was announced?

    Say you throw a dart at a double, hit a score that busts you. The scorekeeper announces you busted, and while walking up to retrieve your darts, the dart falls out. Do you get to shoot again? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.
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    kirby
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    30 years ago saw Allan Daggart who used to throw with long feathers shooting at a double 1 put the dart in the staple on the bust side of the double but because no one could tell if it was in or not the chaulker (their chaulker by the way) Laughing looked to see the angle and the dart fell on the floor Shocked Well before anyone could scream anything he pastes the 2nd dart dead nut in the double 1 and won the game... Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing I did'nt even bother complaining cause if the first one had been in he would have won anyway...tough to argue that one..
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    If the dart sticks and the chalker calls it a bust, then it is a bust.
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    kirby
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    PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    If the dart sticks and the chalker calls it a bust, then it is a bust.


    IF... Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    abneg
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    If the dart sticks and the chalker calls it a bust, then it is a bust.


    Sorry people, this debate should not have been allowed to die.
    I'm kinda new to the sport and would be interested to know the official ruling on this.
    What happens if the shot is a 180. If the chalker does not see one dart is not in securely and announces 180, the shooter walks up to the board and the dart falls out, what happens?

    Alex
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    As soon as you bust your turn is over so you wouldn't be able to throw any more darts to cause the first to dislodge.

    I actually had this happen in a match I was chalking where one player had 2 left, threw a dart that was just inside the wire for a bust and, in disgust, threw his next dart that just happened to hit in the D1 right above his first dart causing that first dart to fall out. The player tried to claim he had won, but I (as chalker and, basically, referee for the match) had already called his turn over when he busted. The tournament director was called over and confirmed my interpretation of the rules.


    Good call!
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    abneg
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Erik wrote:
    CraigB wrote:
    As soon as you bust your turn is over so you wouldn't be able to throw any more darts to cause the first to dislodge.

    I actually had this happen in a match I was chalking where one player had 2 left, threw a dart that was just inside the wire for a bust and, in disgust, threw his next dart that just happened to hit in the D1 right above his first dart causing that first dart to fall out. The player tried to claim he had won, but I (as chalker and, basically, referee for the match) had already called his turn over when he busted. The tournament director was called over and confirmed my interpretation of the rules.


    Good call!


    I can agree with the call above only because the shooter threw an additional dart to dislodge the first one. But what if the dart fell out on its own after the chalker had called his turn over.

    The way I'd interpret the rules above is the chalker is not allowed to call a bust (or score for that matter) until the shooter retrieves his darts.

    I dont have a copy of any official rules so I'll have to do a search so I can research this further. If anyone can discredit my interpretation with a quote from a rule book please do. Any links would also be helpful.

    Alex
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    abneg wrote:
    CraigB wrote:
    If the dart sticks and the chalker calls it a bust, then it is a bust.


    Sorry people, this debate should not have been allowed to die.
    I'm kinda new to the sport and would be interested to know the official ruling on this.
    What happens if the shot is a 180. If the chalker does not see one dart is not in securely and announces 180, the shooter walks up to the board and the dart falls out, what happens?

    Alex


    In most situations you will find that once the chalker and shooter have agreed on the score, the score is considered official, but I have seen situations where the dart falls from the board just as the player attempts to retrieve it and a debate about counting it began. I think it really depends on the your local customs and league rules. Some leagues say a dart counts if it stays in the board 3 seconds after the last dart has been thrown.

    British Darts Organization Rules also covers this issue:
    www.bdodarts.com/
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    abneg
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well, this is what I found from the DRA rule book. Like I said before I'm not an expert in pro darts so anyone more "In The Know" than me feel free to chime in.

    This is really anal stuff, but it's conflicting and confusing.

    5.12.01 For a score to count it must be called AND retrieved.

    5.12.03 Darts can only be retrieved AFTER call.

    5.11.03 Bust rule shall apply if a player "SCORES" more than required.

    So the only way I can interpret this is if a player shoots and its called a bust and before he can retrieve his dart it falls out then this dart has not scored and he should be allowed to throw his remaining darts.

    Alex
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    Erik
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    You hit the bust, it's a bust.

    Now, if the dart hits and it is hanging there and might fall out you've got 5 seconds from impact....which aint a lot of time. However, if the dart impacts and then falls out within that few seconds then it isn't a bust as the last scoring dart must remain in the board for that duration to count -- just as when you hit a double to win but then the dart falls out before it's been in the board the required amount of time...you lose.

    I've actually seen people jump up and down in hopes of dislodging a dart like that....but in the end you FAILED to hit the out and busted. Except it and move on Wink
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    abneg
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Erik wrote:
    You hit the bust, it's a bust.

    Now, if the dart hits and it is hanging there and might fall out you've got 5 seconds from impact....which aint a lot of time. However, if the dart impacts and then falls out within that few seconds then it isn't a bust as the last scoring dart must remain in the board for that duration to count -- just as when you hit a double to win but then the dart falls out before it's been in the board the required amount of time...you lose.

    I've actually seen people jump up and down in hopes of dislodging a dart like that....but in the end you FAILED to hit the out and busted. Except it and move on Wink


    Rule 5.10.05 Any dart that falls out of the board prior to being retrieved by the throwing player does not count.
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Supporting the idea that a second dart may be thrown to dislodge a bust seems a bad idea. It promotes and excuses poor sportsmanship as an unhappy player could take advantage of such a rule to throw a dart at high speed in an alleged attempt to dislodge the first. For safety, we don't need darts flying at high speed on odd angles.

    This is a situation that is not adequately addressed in any rule book I have seen. It would be nice if a rule book were created in the style of the USGA with situations and interpretations described.

    -bob
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    fotoman
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    My organization is under the rules of the DRA and I have just asked for formal clarification/ruling on these various scenarios. Will post when I get a response.
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