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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Post Pacmania II Questions
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    Post Pacmania II Questions
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    Why didn't you go to the Pacmania II $100,000.00 Steel Tip Tournament
    The entry fee's were to high.
    2%
     2%  [ 1 ]
    The hotel rooms were to expensive
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    The top players in the country will be there, there is no way I can compete with them.
    2%
     2%  [ 1 ]
    I Had family commitments
    8%
     8%  [ 4 ]
    I didn't like the format
    0%
     0%  [ 0 ]
    I get to nervous at big tournaments. I was afraid I would shoot poorly
    2%
     2%  [ 1 ]
    Most of the draw events were on Thursday and I could not get out of work
    4%
     4%  [ 2 ]
    I just couldn't afford it right now
    77%
     77%  [ 35 ]
    Act of God kept me away
    2%
     2%  [ 1 ]
    Total Votes : 45

    Author Message
    Quovatis
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Post Pacmania II Questions Reply with quote

    There has been some discussion on the rather low turn out for the Pacmania II event. I think the high point was somwhere around 160 players, but even so I had heard speculation before the event that the numbers could be in the 300 - 400 range, so my question is where did everyone go? This is not a gripe or complaint I am just curious. If there was something about this event that people did not like, I would love to hear it so I don't make mistakes with my future tournaments. So if you did not go to this event for some reason other than an act of god, or a poor economy, give me your opinion and lets see what we come up with.

    Thanks
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    For me, none of the above stated reasons are the one reason I wasn’t there; several of them worked for me.

    Short notice had a LOT to do with it. I am cleared for take off to travel out of state (thanks hubby). But I also look at where I have a better chance of doing well. It is not that I’m scared of playing anyone! I can only get better playing better players. However, knowing that a lot of the top players are there; knowing that the cost is high; wanting to play the odds . . . all come into play. If the Pacman tourney was played in Houston, you couldn’t keep me from it; if it was played in Texas (or adjoining states) . . . again, I’d be there. But to spend the $$$$ to travel to a very expensive area, where the odds (face it, the odds were the top ranked players would prevail) did make me decide to spend my money going elsewhere. I do have a budget . . .it only make sense for me to spend it wisely. Just my humble opinion.
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Dito on short notice.

    I believe that many people in this day and age have to plan much further in advance than a couple of months.

    Granted I believe that most of the top shooters were there. But the lack of the mid caliber shooters who have to work and really plan out their events, this was too short of notice to pay for this trip. JMO

    The evidence is in the voting so far, all are cast for could not afford it.
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    Last edited by SOUPR on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As far as I know, I was the only person representing Portland, Oregon, which surprised me, because I'm far from the best player from there, plus I spoke with many people beforehand who were hoping/trying to make it. The airfare and hotel wasn't toooo bad, especially if it was for a better player who could have easily placed in the top 16 or better several times, and offset the costs, or even made money...

    But, I also understand that many people are just too pinched by the economy to take the risk. Others from Portland also had planned to go, but had to skip it in order to afford to travel to pother tourneys later this summer. Also, I learned while I was there, that there were several other international major tourneys going on, like in Canada and Germany which kept some international players away. And, it is summer, and it was short notice, and I'm sure many people had plans or commitments...

    For crying out loud, Manny himself didn't even make it!

    And, in my case, I never would have gone to Pacmania II if it wasn't for the fact that my family was in LA the next few days doing Disneyland and I was invited to join them (aka, free lodging and a chance to watch my nephews enjoy the Magic Kingdom). But, I wouldn't have done either if I wasn't fortunate enough to do both, two birds with one stone--and, even though I won a little money at the shoot, this whole trip probably has cost me about $1000 in airfare, hotels, transpo, food, drinks and entertainment--which, fortunately, I could afford after saving money all year...

    Regardless of the turnout--it was a great shoot, a great opportunity to meet other darters and pros, and its great for the sport...

    Times are just tough right now I think, and it's too bad it's coinciding with the growing popularity of darts...

    So, having to pick one answer in the poll, I picked: "couldn't afford it now" on the presumption that that was the biggest factor for most who wanted to go but couldn't...

    Btw Quovatis, with this being just your 3rd post on SEWA, it looks like you're new to the site--welcome! Very Happy
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    Last edited by Thorn on Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Agreed, Thorn . . . and SOUPR!
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I can't afford the gas to drive to the gas station at the moment... Confused
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    PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think that there could be multiple reasons that there was a lower-than-expected turnout for this tournament. To single out one specific reason may be a bit difficult. In my opinion, it probably mostly had to do with a combination of the state of the economy, the expense of travel costs (gas, airfare, lodging, etc.), and the relatively short time for people to plan and arrange their schedules and finances. Many people may have already planned a summer vacation or trip and might not have had the time or finances to include an additional venture on such short notice.

    Also, I would bet that if this tourney were held on the east coast (Philly, NYC, Boston, D.C.), you would have had double the turnout. Something about Los Angeles doesn't scream, "American Dart Mecca," to me. While there are probably many players in the CA area, I would bet that there is a higher concentration of mid-level tourney players (who are essential to a successful turnout) within auto-travelling range that would have attended had they only had to jump in a car for a few hours, as opposed to travelling across the country by air.

    In one respect, I am happy for the west coast, as they are often overlooked when it comes to large, meaningful dart tournies. It seems that whenever there is a huge darting event, the west-coasters are the ones who are forced to do the greatest travelling. However, on the flip side of the coin, there may well be a reason for that. If there is a tourney that is held in, say Philadelphia, the drive time (and travel expense for a larger segment of potential players) is decreased significantly. You are within an 8 hr. or less drive from New England, NYC, Ohio, D.C., the Carolinas, etc.. All of these places have thriving steel-tip dart communities with plenty of potential players. These are players who might be willing to hop in a car with a few of their friends and drive to a tourney for a few days on a whim. The average dart player, though, is not going to fly 2000+ miles, on short notice, to throw some darts in a tourney where there is but a slim chance to make up even a small fraction of their expenses.

    I think that if you bring the tournament to the players, they will come. Plain and simple, you can reach a larger amount of potential players with an east coast tourney. This is why you have much success with larger tournies such as Va. Beach, Rae Chesney, White Mountain, Syracuse, USA Classic, etc., in the east. Tournaments such as these reach a larger amount of potential players, have higher payouts, decreased travel expense, and as a result, higher turnouts. This isn't to say that you cannot have successful dart tournaments on the west coast, but I think that you may have better odds in the east in regards to people showing up, particuliarly on shorter notice. IMHO.

    I would also like to mention how important I think a tournament like this is to the sport here in the US. I would like to take the time to show thanks to the organizers and I hope that this is something that can be continued year after year. It is certainly a step in the right direction for the growth of a wonderful sport.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Same week and weekend of the Canadian darts championships and WDF ranked Canadian Open. Although if most of us that went had known the conditions we would be playing under in Quebec we would have gone to LA .
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Bring that event to Philly or Boston with that kind of money, you will easily double your attendance. With more time and promotion you could triple it. Boston and Philly probably have the highest per capita number of dart shooters in north america.

    In addition to the above, you need to plan far ahead. i.e. next week you should be picking your dates for next year gettting them on the calendar. Due to darts being an amateur pursuit in this country people need plenty of time to plan ahead for travel, time off work, etc....
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I agree with cannibal regarding bringing the event to Boston (meaning Boston) or Philadelphia.

    I think the turnout to PM II this year is due to scheduling and the short notice of the announcement of the event.

    It was held shortly after the NADC, shortly before the LVDC. The US Open and Players Championships in Ontario are coming up, not to mention that I think there was another Canadian event recently (possibly, even, the same weekend as PM II).

    Players had/have already booked their travel arrangments for some of these events.

    I agree with others that have posted that with some planning and some advance notice, not to mention a change in coasts, this event would be an annual that everyone would make plans to attend.

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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Cool Timing was huge. I previously booked in for the Las Vegas Desert Classic. Hotel and airfare booked months ago. Arranged for time off from work etc. With that paid out already and the prospect of booking more time off from work plus an East coast to West coast plane fare and another hotel stay just a week earlier would have been enormous. Add to it that my game is nowhere close to what it needs to be to be successful at these large events, and it is far easier to spend the money to take a week vacation in Vegas rather than a short weekend in Los Angeles.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Wanted to be there, but daughter's graduation from high school kept me home. If it makes you feel better, I had serious withdrawal symptoms all weekend!!!!!
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I would like to think that if this event was held on the East coast it would have had a better turn out but I really doubt it. The North American was just a few weeks ago had a pretty anemic turn out as well and it was held in the heart of dart country. I think the reasons for the low turn outs are many. Money being first on the list. Followed closely by people being afraid of the thought of heavy competition. There is reluctance of many to risk getting skunked at these things which to some degree plays back into the money factor. I know of some great east coast shots that just didn't think the risk was worth the reward. However I also think that many just don't think they have the game (and they are not wrong) to compete and in their minds make these events worth while. To me its kinda sad that people don't want to rise to these challenges but the proof is in the pudding (turn outs). Now for the most part this does not apply to the type of people that are here on SEWA but we must understand we ARE the lunatic fringe of darts. Most players couldn't care less and it shows.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Niknak wrote:
    Wanted to be there, but daughter's graduation from high school kept me home. If it makes you feel better, I had serious withdrawal symptoms all weekend!!!!!


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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    cannibal wrote:
    Bring that event to Philly or Boston with that kind of money, you will easily double your attendance. With more time and promotion you could triple it.


    I said this after the first one and got hammered for it. But it is the truth. While I do think it is a great thing that manny is doing for us, the overall impact it is having is minimal.

    With the light at the end of the PDC tunnel getting dimmer & dimmer the need for a new promoter is growing and I think this is where manny could be of help. The $100,00 that was put up last week is close to that of a WDF/BDO major. Yet only about 200 people saw it.

    Wouldn't it be nice to hold a WDF major and stream it live over the internet for the same money. Or guarantee the North American Open for three years.

    Just asking.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I beleive that the state of the economy has a lot to do with how many people attend these events.

    Right now people just have to plan so much more as to which events they can afford to attend.JMO
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jwarner wrote:
    cannibal wrote:
    Bring that event to Philly or Boston with that kind of money, you will easily double your attendance. With more time and promotion you could triple it.


    I said this after the first one and got hammered for it. But it is the truth. While I do think it is a great thing that manny is doing for us, the overall impact it is having is minimal.

    With the light at the end of the PDC tunnel getting dimmer & dimmer the need for a new promoter is growing and I think this is where manny could be of help. The $100,00 that was put up last week is close to that of a WDF/BDO major. Yet only about 200 people saw it.

    Wouldn't it be nice to hold a WDF major and stream it live over the internet for the same money. Or guarantee the North American Open for three years.

    Just asking.
    You got hammered by left coasters that perhaps somewhat rightly feel as if they have got the short end of the stick tournament numbers wise. However, with that being said even though I have NO idea what it is....there could have been a better place or a better way to inject that cash into US Darts but location doesn’t seem to matter. There just does not seem to be anyway to get US darters invigorated for big time comps. The PDC has thrown money at this problem here in the States for a few years and interest seems less than before they started. 112 players at the US Open with $$$$thousands on the line! Are you kidding me! Manny throws 135K out for grabs in three months and you get turn outs no better than your average… run of the mill 10K event! (same people for the most part show up at these events regardless of money involved because they love the game). I don't know what the answer is….. but the old mantra that if you have enough money you will have great events. That theory just does not seem to hold water does it? 100K on the line in an open event in England or Holland and I would dare say you would have had every darter within driving distance swinging from the rafters. Here you can't get the local rank and file from the nearby leagues to show up. This is not a shot at left coasters as the same thing just happened in MA with the US Open.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    "100K on the line in an open event in England or Holland and I would dare say you would have had every darter within driving distance swinging from the rafters."


    I agree That's why I thought maybe having a WDF major would draw more. The most recent Isle of Man tournament drew close to 700 playing for about $32,000 US
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Yeah as long as the WDF major was not in the USA Laughing Laughing Laughing I don't get it Confused Why we can't get it off the ground here. It's not money because even that does not seem to be a draw. Travel expenses obviously effects some but why then do the locals not bother to show up? I think perhaps we dart nuts over estimate the value others place on the game........
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Did they not just hold the North American in Boston recently?

    Don't they have a very large leagues there?

    You would think they would have had at least 500 hundred players show up. What happened? Hard too say.

    I would think just getting local players to show up would be a good start.

    Maybe we should tie some ADO money and leagues together? Most leagues are tied to the ADO are they not?

    When you play leagues, a portion of league fees goes to at least 1 event at some of the tournaments? Drawing players to attent at least 1 event they can play in?

    I don't know. We just need to find something that will increase turnouts.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think it's a mix of economical decisions and to be brutally honest the dart players themselves.

    Economically, I'd be willing to say anywhere from 50 to even 100 shooters or more from outside the Cali area would have made it had their bank accounts been able to withstand the trip. It's not the entry fees and it's not the competition. It's the cost of traveling and paying for a few nights to stay. Dallas by itself should have had at least 30 players at Pac II. Only one went that I am aware of and I know it's simply because money is tight nowadays.

    It reminds me that economically shooters should be able to get sponsors to help pay their travel expenses, but that fails due to many dart players and their actions.

    For example, a major brand of Irish Whiskey threw $10,000 into the Dallas area Dart Circuit last year. The director spread that over a series of high payout tournaments around the DFW area that were advertised well, went great and drew some really nice numbers. They didn't sponsor again after that. Why? The dart players didn't buy any of their whiskey!

    It's as simple as that. Had every shooter in those events that was drinking at all ordered at least one drink of that brand maybe they'd have looked at the numbers and sponsored again. I recall having two myself at one of the events and someone said "You're a Jack Daniels drinker, what are you switching now?" I said "No, I want them to sponsor darts again. You should get yourself one." Over a hundred shooters wandering around the dart boards, branded posters, cute shot girls handing out freebie shots, dart cases and koozies and everyone is carrying around a bottle of beer. I don't blame the sponsor from dropping out.

    If Coca Cola sponsors darts, for the love of darts buy a Coke! If Hooters sponsors darts, drop by for some wings or even a to go order and tell them thanks for their support! Many players just don't do that.

    The dart players don't support the sponsors, and that is why it is difficult to GET sponsors. That's why we don't get televised events. That's why we hit nothing but road blocks when we try to grow the sport in America. We can't get what we need to make things happen because we're not all on the same page.

    As far as getting numbers to the events I think that also comes down to the dart players. Sure, there are leagues all over the US and some have a huge number of members and players. But, not all of the players are as serious or competitive as others. You could drop a $100,000 event in their backyard with free barbecue but it won't guarantee they will play.

    In my opinion, those of us who are serious about darts overestimate the players who aren't and expect them to attend events and support the sport the way we do and it's just not that way. I also think here in America darts is lucky to be where it is and that is usually based on volunteer efforts, which wears people out eventually. There are so many factors, these are just a few I think tend to hamper the efforts.
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well, this tournament was driving distance for me and I barely made it.

    Timing. While Manny wants to promote darts and has spare cash on hand to put on these events, us mere mortals need a little more time to plan things out. Budgets come into play...

    Put this on the calendar for the 2nd week of June next year and I expect no less than double, maybe triple the attendance. MINIMUM of 6 months warning is needed for this.

    Several have mentioned this, but attendance was about the same a a $10k event except the percentage of top players that were there was much higher. I didn't have a problem with that, but it would have been nice to not get knocked out in the 1st round by Sean Downs in 501 and Chris Helms in Cricket Very Happy

    BTW, there is already talk about another one later this year....
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    PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: pacman II Reply with quote

    Ok, it was definitely the entry fees in my opinion who has $ 50 for 1 event ?and the timing is a big factor same thing everyone's been saying. if the money is guarenteed then why are the entry fees so high maybe im missing something or i dont understand how the whole payout thing works. also hotel , airfare , etc. cannibal also had a good point have the next one on the eastcoast and double possibly triple the attendance i know i would be there along with 20 -30 other philly shooters at least. and the number 1 reason is ................. talent. i think the reason the tourneys overseas see a 600 -700 ppl turnout is because they avg 16-19 darts a game, the quality of play is better and they know they have a shot at $$$$. why dont we if manny has another tourney and give us enough time to plan, have a consolation tourney for the players that dont make the money rounds but have the consolation a bigger payout then usual. instead of 5000 to the winner of the 501 (wow thats a lot) have it 3000 thats still will draw the best and a few other events take off a few hundred. then you can make the consolation a few grand. will that work????
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    chunky
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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: pacman II Reply with quote

    Like others who have already posted, I believe it was a combination of factors. However, the relatively late notice and the timing were two of the biggest problems for people. Having said that, holding it the same week as a PDC Players Championship ensured that the money stayed in North America... Wink

    PHILLYKID180 wrote:
    Ok, it was definitely the entry fees in my opinion who has $ 50 for 1 event ?


    Firstly, EVERY entry fee was at least $10 less than $50.

    Secondly, you don't have to play every event; I didn't get in until Friday afternoon, meaning that I saved a night's hotel, and a number of entry fees.

    Finally, let's consider this - the previous week in Houston, I paid $20 in an attempt to win $500. In Burbank, I paid $40 in an attempt to win $5,000! Is that such a bad deal? Even winning a couple of matches ensured that I was $210 ahead on the one event, whereas I had to make the final in Houston in order to do the same thing.

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    PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That's a good counter point...

    Yes, the payouts were good--if you could afford to get there first...and several players were able to take the risk, quickly (or evenutally) cover their expenses, and make some healthy profits; others did not, even pros came up short because the payouts and the economy made the competition stronger but the turnout lower...

    Some other payout examples...

    1) I suck--at least in that crowd of players, I had to be in the bottom 10%, especially with the way I threw, which was what I'd call my "D+" game, don't know why, doesn't matter. I also had marginal fortune in the BD's and in the byes/match-ups. Yet, I entered 5 events @ $160 total and somehow placed in top16 twice and got $100 back. And, had I beat a certain pro in the Men's 501--and I couldashoulda--I would have added $250 for top16. Same thing happened in Men's Chicago when I absolutely shoulda beaten my opponent--that's another $100 I, I repeat, I could have had...

    2) The gentlemen from South Carolina also arrived on day two and won the Men's Doubles, won $1500 each, plus one told me their wife got a top16 and their weekend was already paid and made...

    3) Day one, a player who didn't know some of the most basic 2-dart outs took home $1450!
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