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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Why the Skill Differential?
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    Why the Skill Differential?

     
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    calebjkeen
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Why the Skill Differential? Reply with quote

    Why are professional male players so much better than the professional women?

    I can't think of a single activity/sport/whatever where the physical characteristics that give men an advantage re. strength matter less than in darts. And yet the best of the women's game doesn't even come close to being able to compete with professional male players. Trina Gulliver, Deta Hedman and Anastasia Dombromslova wouldn't get out of the floor matches of most professional tourneys and yet they're the best women in the world.

    Again, what gives? I'm watching the women's final of the World Masters, appalled at the quality of play, and genuinely stumped.
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    chunky
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I know that you're probably going to take some stick for you post, but sadly, it's true. This is not a sexist question; facts are not sexist.

    It's not just at the top level either; if you look at the the British Inter-County averages, you will see a marked difference.

    Obviously, players like Tina, Anastasia, Deta, and even our own Stacy, are capable of throwing 30+ ppd averages, but they just aren't anywhere near as common.

    On any given day, any decent woman CAN beat a man - and a top quality one at that - but it is rare. Stacy has won open singles in this country, and Deta has has a long list of top male victims, but it is rare. Like you, I really don't understand why.

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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I can guess at one reason - the pool of talent to draw from is so much bigger for men. If you take the top 1% of 10,000 players, those are likely to be better than the top 1% of a 1000 person group. (Just using arbitrary numbers there). There's just so many more men that play.

    Billiards is the same way - strength, speed, agility, etc. don't matter, but the top men will still beat the top women most of the time.
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    getagrip
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think there is probably a lot reasons why men are better, I think the main thing is that when it comes to sporting activities men are in general more competitive than women, also men are usually more interested in sport than women.

    Obviously there is exceptions to that.


    Last edited by getagrip on Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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    ducks
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I think it's quite simple. The best women athletes are not playing the game.

    America fields awesome men's basketball, football (American), and baseball teams. Yet America cannot field a men's rugby or field hockey team that can challenge for a top world ranking. Why? The top American men athletes are playing the American sports. When I watch international rugby on ESPN, I don't see athletes that are superior to American athletes. I just see great athletes. The problem is that the great American athletes don't play rugby.

    I believe that women's darts at the top level suffers a similar problem. I believe that if you took the best international women's softball, tennis, basketball and soccer players, and trained them in darts for several years, they would shoot darts just as well as the top PDC men.

    The problem isn't that women are inferior to men. The problem is that the women playing darts are not athletically gifted enough. Get athletically gifted women, and I bet they would play just as well as the men.
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    calebjkeen
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    ducks wrote:
    I think it's quite simple. The best women athletes are not playing the game.
    ...

    The problem isn't that women are inferior to men. The problem is that the women playing darts are not athletically gifted enough. Get athletically gifted women, and I bet they would play just as well as the men.


    I never said or even implied that women are inherently inferior to men. However, the caliber of play routinely demonstrated by the top women is notably inferior to that of the top men.

    I don't know that I accept that dart players are supremely athletic, or that the men's game is superior to the women's because of the level of athleticism being displayed by said men. A great athlete Phil Taylor is not. Darts just doesn't require much in the way of athleticism to be successful in the same sense that football or basketball, say, require that one be athletic in general to be successful (fast, strong, good reflexes and hand/eye coordination etc.).

    A further question / refinement: why are there women's-only tournaments? Why aren't all the tournaments open? Again, I can't think of a reason why men would have an inherent advantage in darts, and hence should be separated from the ladies. Wouldn't the ladies game improve if they were always playing against the men?

    All of this questioning proceeds from how sad I felt watching the Women's Final of the World Masters. It was such a second-rate thing and was dwarfed by the men's tournament. I found it condescending that ESPN and the BDO carved-out half an hour for a very short-format Women's-only final.
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    dwalsh
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    All about revenue...that's why they got a "whole" best of 7 legs.This is a tough subject because people are going to think you are pitting the sexes against one another...people's sensibilities are going to get out of joint.I think it is a fair question.....I think Ducks has it right...our best are really not playing the sport in the numbers needed to excel.
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    chunky
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The point about the number of competitors sounds good, except that there is little actual logic in that. Ability of an individual is not directly linked to the amount of competitors. As I said, it's not just at the professional level either.

    The are fewer women soccer players in the US than there are in most European nations, yet we still boasted the best team in the world.

    My favorite sport outside of darts is motorcycle speedway. Most of you won't even know of it's existence, as it's not popular in the US. There are nowhere near the amount of riders over here as there are in England, Denmark, Sweden, or Poland. Yet an American is currently leading the world championship. There have been a number of previous American World Champions, despite being greatly outnumbered.

    I'm sorry, we cant actually use that as a bona fide reason. Neither can we use "killer instinct" as a valid reason, nor mechanics. I know plenty of women with better mechanics and better temperament/attitude than most men, yet they don't compare skill-wise to many recreational local league players.

    As far as playing in "open" events, that may aid improvement, but seeing as there are mixed leagues and "open" events out there, it hasn't actually made a huge difference. If we were to just make everything "open" it may well help those who do compete, but it certainly won't turn out women of equal standard to the men.

    Besides, how many women do you think will play? If women refuse to play in events because Stacy Bromberg or Brenda Roush are there, what makes you think that they will be inclined to play against me or Larry Butler?

    These points may well be factors in the overall scheme of things, but it's impossible to actually find a major reason.

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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I've just been checking the averages from last season's British Inter-Counties Championship. There are 12 men and 6 women per county 'A' team. They way the BDO list them is the actual ppd average, plus bonus points for matches won. Personally, I don't like that, because it can give a very false impression of a player's performance. It also makes it more difficult to do a direct comparison, but this is what I found.

    Trina Gulliver and Deta Hedman were the only two women to average over 24 ppd. The highest ranked man to post an average inferior to them was 87th in the list.

    Julie Gore was third, with an average of 23.41. There was only ONE man with an average lower than that - IN THE TOP 389!

    Sadly, these figures speak for themselves.

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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I don't have the answer to this question, but I really don't think being the best athletic is the answer. I look at all the top men shooters, and really can't come up with 1 real athelete in the bunch.

    If I were to take a guess, I would say mucsle memory and hand eye cordination would make for the biggest differences. Mens mucsles are bigger naturally, and may be a factor in mucsle memory.
    I would also say that men have more time to practice then women do, as women are busy raising their kids, for those who have them.
    I could be way off base here, I don't know, but again, being a better athelet? I just don't see it in darts. Sports, absolutely, but not darts.
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    PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Why the Skill Differential? Reply with quote

    calebjkeen wrote:
    Why are professional male players so much better than the professional women?

    I can't think of a single activity/sport/whatever where the physical characteristics that give men an advantage re. strength matter less than in darts. And yet the best of the women's game doesn't even come close to being able to compete with professional male players. Trina Gulliver, Deta Hedman and Anastasia Dombromslova wouldn't get out of the floor matches of most professional tourneys and yet they're the best women in the world.

    Again, what gives? I'm watching the women's final of the World Masters, appalled at the quality of play, and genuinely stumped.
    Confused Rolling Eyes The flood of replies from women to this thread might indicate something about your quiry.
    I don't have any information which might shed some light on this.
    Shocked Linda J. Duffy, Bahman Baluch, and K. Anders Erikson; pyschologist, produced a research paper on sport pyschology for what types of darts practice produce the best results. This study, according to Ms Duffy, was originally intended to address your question Caleb, but left that question for further study. They couldn't address it so it was no surprise to me when I have gotten no, that's no, answers from the women I've asked about this.
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Since this is a topic that could possibly be taken off target, and one that has been handled very well up to now, I felt it made sense to move it to the Straight Shooting forum to keep it that way.

    - Craig
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    jakesy
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well I'd hate to over simplify this but it's not rocket science. While there is obviously no physical limitations in our sport that divide the sexes, so in this aspect athleticism is a non-factor. There is however one aspect of athleticism that does play a factor and a major one at that. It is quite simply competitive drive. While women posses it, it is dwarfed by that of man. It's established in our DNA, our genetics. Hunters and gatherers. While I'm sure what I'm about to say will be about as popular as a fart in church, it's undeniably true.
    While women will fare well in competition against each other, it will be at a level that will unconsciously, not rival man's. We can look the other way and be in denial as much as we like but it's true. Women are wired to be submissive to men. To not compete with, to not rival men.
    Here, (darts) is the perfect venue to prove this theory wrong with the absence of physical disparity yet it still holds true. Are there excretions to this rule? On rare occasions yes. ( Billie jean King vs Bobby what's his name). She chose a very beatable target to promote women's Lib. She was more of a man than he was. It was nothing more than a dog and pony show. At the end of the day, a top tiered woman will not beat a top tiered man.
    It's genetics, all genetics. If women accepted this from a societal view, we would have a much better society. But sports and competition are not philosophical conceptualizations, it's physical performance. There's no hiding behind a degree in Womens studies. Sorry to sound like I'm women bashing, it is not intended that way. I'm just exhibiting hard facts that are undeniable but somehow unacceptable and in most cases unspeakable. Sorry, well not really. Wink
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jakesy wrote:
    Are there excretions to this rule?


    Um, I believe you meant to say "exceptions" to this rule? Razz
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    jakesy wrote:
    At the end of the day, a top tiered woman will not beat a top tiered man.


    That may be true in tennis, but not so in darts. It is rare, I grant you, but as I said in an earlier post, I know several women who are far more focused and driven than many men (and mechanically superior), but that makes little difference - and little sense...

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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    We once hashed this out before and in the end the result was the same I think. Simply put men and women are different Physiologically

    Our reaction times are different, our chemical make up is different, how we perceive what we see and hear may even be different...why is this so hard to understand today?

    Seriously, men and women are different and I'd suggest we leave it at that.

    Now, if you want to have men and women compete together, that's fine too but let's not try to make the argument that they are physically or physiologically the same because it simply isn't the truth.

    I might also add that our testosterone levels can be TEN TIMES as high as that of womens...do you really think that doesn't impact the competitiveness we display? Or perhaps our physical differences? Faster reaction times for example?

    Bottom line: men and women are different and this can be seen on the dartboard just as it can be seen on the beach.
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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well put, Erik. Whether we like it or not, and for whatever the reason(s), there IS a difference. The sad thing is that both sides try and use the argument for their own ends. I hear women saying that they've seen players (female) who ARE (not CAN be) just as good, if not better, than men. I also hear men saying that there shouldn't be women's events, as there is no reason for the difference in ability. I don't listen to either...

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    PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I ignore them both too Smile
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I grant there are differences between the sexes. I'm not a dissapointed, "We are equal in all things" promoter. I'm just curious what is it is in men, precisely, that makes them so manifestly better at darts.

    We've identified several general, likely factors:

    1) Men are 'harder' wired by nature to have the desire to compete against others, and perhaps the women who are harder wired than most other women for competition play other sports (like women's soccer or basketball etc.)

    2) Men have better hand-eye coordination in general

    3) Even men who are attentive fathers and husbands are out of the house more than their wives (IN GENERAL) during prime dart-playing/improving years (23-50 or so).
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    PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    There are all kinds of women on Sewa, I would like to hear their version, or refute any of the above. I think it would be quite interesting to hear their side, whether it be for or against the opinions above.

    How about it ladies, any takers?
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