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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - I have a question regarding darts that fall out
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    I have a question regarding darts that fall out

     
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    crazydarts
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:52 pm    Post subject: I have a question regarding darts that fall out Reply with quote

    I was at a recent match when this took place. During a 501 match a player hit a single20, trip20,then another trip 20. As he was walking to remove his darts one of the trip20 darts fell out. Leaving him with 80 points. I understand that he didn't get the points for the dart that fell out my question is this. In this same game the same player needed a double 16 to out. He hit a trip16 with his first dart samething happened it fell out but this time he busted? So my question is why didn't he get to shoot his other darts. If he didn't get points earlier when his dart fell out how can he bust when the dart fell out? I'm new to darts and still learning but this didn't seem fair at all.
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    LaujThoj
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    yes, I agree. I remember someone saying a long time ago that there is a 3 second rule and if it was in for 3 seconds it would count but its too technical. Another situation I was thinking about too was if he hit a triple and went for a double, then as soon as he hits the double the previous dart in the triple falls out. That would just be unfair because he did hit it. Someone who knows more about rules than me will have to answer this but my two cents is I think robin hoods and darts that fall out, if they were in long enough for the third dart to be thrown or if it was your last dart to stay in long enough for you to start walking up to board and have a witness, should count.

    Can't say I recommend this cause I've been yelled at for "ruining boards" but if you sand or file the tips of your darts, they can be hanging by the tip but still won't fall out.
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    KopRalph11
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    PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    2 aspects to remember.
    A lot depends on association rules and also interpretation.

    For any shot to count in the PDC they must be in the board at retrieval. If anybody wondered how quick Dennis Priestly can move then watch him run to his dart when its dropping.

    Any dart thrown that is a bust constitutes a bust no further darts may be thrown and even if it drops out upon retrieval its still is a bust. Now a dart that immediately drops out. i.e. a bounce out does not count. Whats important to remember is that it must immediately come out. No lag of time whatsoever.
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    Thorn
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    PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    These are great questions crazydarts--and welcome to SEWA--and seriously, I'm embarrassed that you haven't been buried in a chorus of harmonious explanations! (shame on us SEWAnuats! No excuses on a workday! Very Happy )

    I'm guilty too--I passed over responding a couple times to let the conversation develop, with thoughts from other members like LT there--and KR's always good for info...

    Another reason I hesitated to reply is that your question is so well stated it almost flusters me to think about!

    But, the answers above are great....

    I'll try too though...just to check myself.

    Either you have a chalker (officiant) or not. Both require sportsmanship, which requires integrity...but, basically...

    Darts in the board do not count until you touch one. Touching a dart ends your turn. If one falls out before you end your turn it does not count. And, unless it falls right out, a bust is a bust, turn over. Also, if there's ever a dispute at league or an organized tourney, kindly ask your captain or the director.

    The bottom line when learning the game is sportsmanship.

    By the way, was this board a "Bandit"? (In the past, I've seen what you describe with that brand. Heard the new ones fixed it though.)

    And, LT's right. If a board is slowly spitting them out, scuff your tip edges; sandpaper, cement, a file, etc. Citris juice works well too--stab a lemon wedge. But only if it's necessary, it does wear boards faster. But, there's some little tricks for ya....

    Wink
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    Isaac
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    PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I will answer this from a PADA perspective more specifically as best as I can from rules as they were told to me.

    As has been said a bust is always a bust when it happens unless it is literally a bounce out shot and never really in at all. Otherwise you could bust on your first dart and just wait around forever for it to fall out... Wink

    You do have to touch a dart for it to count.

    I was actually told there is a five second rule. I was told this is only for the winning dart of a leg. The 5 seconds is to compensate for the fact that many people would not pull there darts first on the winning dart, but instead shake the hand of their opponent(s) before retrieving darts.
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    RCWPEW
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    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    On a not so totally unrelated aspect...This past weekend at the Syracuse open, during luck of the draw 501, I had this happen. My throw, first dart trip 20. Second dart slid into single 1(typical but I digress). The 2 darts are not very far apart and about on the same level. Third dart deflects off one of the others, bounces up and comes down between them. Now, I have seen many instances where a dart is dangling among other darts but this dart came to rest with its point resting on the ring for double bull! It was deffinitely touching the board. After staring and laughing at this momentarily, I asked if the score counted as it was touching the board. The four of us could not come to a reasonable conclusion so I asked some surrounding players their take on this. Most agreed that the point had to be embedded in the sisal. The score was recorded and we moved on. My question is this: Does the point have to physically be "in" the sisal to count, and what is considered to be "embedded"? I have seen darts end up behind a wire in older style boards and be counted even though it was not the sisal holding them. First time I have seen this happen but probably won't be the last! What is your take on this?
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    Robot
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    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The point has to touch the bristles. That's all.
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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I’ve always played that the dart counts if you touch it before it falls out. But I looked at the ADO tournament rules, which appear to be where the 5 second rule comes from (this isn’t verbatim):
     
    1.    A dart “scores” if it’s in the board for 5 seconds after the third or final dart has been thrown.
    2.    If a player “scores” enough to bust, the score reverts to what it was at the beginning of the turn.
     
    Basically, none of your darts have scored anything until 5 seconds after you throw the third or final dart. Is a busting dart a final dart? Sometimes it is a third dart. So if it is a third or final dart, it doesn’t count if it falls out within 5 seconds. According to those rules, anyway.
     
    But I’ve always played the way others here have stated: if a busting dart sticks at all, the turn is over…even if the dart falls out during the first 4 seconds of my temper tantrum.
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    Isaac
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    JohnP wrote:
    I’ve always played that the dart counts if you touch it before it falls out. But I looked at the ADO tournament rules, which appear to be where the 5 second rule comes from (this isn’t verbatim):
     
    1.    A dart “scores” if it’s in the board for 5 seconds after the third or final dart has been thrown.
    2.    If a player “scores” enough to bust, the score reverts to what it was at the beginning of the turn.
     
    Basically, none of your darts have scored anything until 5 seconds after you throw the third or final dart. Is a busting dart a final dart? Sometimes it is a third dart. So if it is a third or final dart, it doesn’t count if it falls out within 5 seconds. According to those rules, anyway.
     
    But I’ve always played the way others here have stated: if a busting dart sticks at all, the turn is over…even if the dart falls out during the first 4 seconds of my temper tantrum.


    Well said. The term temper tantrum was definitely lacking in my previous post. Very Happy
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    Fletcher
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    PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:11 am    Post subject: Rules 35, 42 & 24 Reply with quote

    ADO rule #35 "For a dart to score it must remain in the board 5 seconds after the 3rd or final dart has been thrown by that player. The tip of the dart must be touching the bristle portion of the board."

    A dart does not have to be embedded to count. It only has to barely touch the bristle.

    I was chalking a game many years ago when staples were used on all boards. A player's dart stuck into the connection point of a staple and I could see the dart slightly wobble/sway. Clearly, it wasn't in the bristle portion of the board. I had to call it a non-scoring dart, it was a curcial situation in a major tournament and the player threw a royal fit. Not sure what else I could have done. Maybe calling out "non-scoring dart!" .

    ADO #42 "The "BUST RULE' will apply. If the player scores one less, equal, or more points than needed to reach zero, he has "busted". His score reverts to the score required prior to the beginning of his turn."

    The "bust" rule states that the player's dart must "score" equal to or more than the requireed amount to reach zero. This means that, if the "busting" dart doesn't stay in the board for at least 5 seconds it doesn't "score" and your turn continues. So, I would say that a mistake was made in counting a "bust" dart that did not stay in the board for 5 seconds. The ADO rules seem to be clear about this. I can't see it being otherwise. Who's to call between a bounce out and a fall out? A 1/10th of a second? A half second? I see only one time associated with a dart counting or not and that's: 5 seconds.

    There is another similiar rule contained in ADO rule #24 "(during the diddle) should the 2nd thrower dislodge the dart of the 1st, a rethrow shall be made with the 2nd thrower now throwing first. ..." Doubt many folks are aware of this one. I was running a tournament and had to make this call. The owner of the dart that got knocked out by the 2nd thrower made a big stink about his bull getting knocked out and wanted it to count. Having read the ADO rule book, I was able to make the proper call and quickly settle the problem.


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    niles
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    OK the horse is not quite dead, and I have to share my odd hypothetical. I have read the previous posts about "they don't count until you touch them" and the "five second rule" and "a bust is a bust as soon as it happens".

    But what about when a win happens? Imagine the following (admitedly highly unlikely) scenario. In a 501 game, Fred has 32 left. He throws his first dart, which clearly lands just outside the D16, but on the wire and with the barrel and flight leaning over and partially blocking the D16 itself (sound familiar?). OK, so far, no issues. He throws the second dart, which, as it ultimately turns out, hits the D16 but because of the odd positioning of the fist dart, LOOKS as though it is also outside the wire. Not wanting to break his flow and stop and look, Fred thinks he still has not won and throws the third dart. This dart hits the FIRST (and second) dart, knocking the second out, and then the third dart ricochets into the, ugh, single seven. The fact that the second dart actually did hit the D16 is now revealed, but then it TOO drops out for all the world to see.

    The question is ... did Fred win? Or does he have 25 left?

    Go ahead and shoot me.

    niles
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    chevalier86
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Confused HHMMMMM.....Good one Niles. HHMMMMMMM.....??????
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    RP_BILL
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    niles wrote:
    OK the horse is not quite dead, and I have to share my odd hypothetical. I have read the previous posts about "they don't count until you touch them" and the "five second rule" and "a bust is a bust as soon as it happens".

    But what about when a win happens? Imagine the following (admitedly highly unlikely) scenario. In a 501 game, Fred has 32 left. He throws his first dart, which clearly lands just outside the D16, but on the wire and with the barrel and flight leaning over and partially blocking the D16 itself (sound familiar?). OK, so far, no issues. He throws the second dart, which, as it ultimately turns out, hits the D16 but because of the odd positioning of the fist dart, LOOKS as though it is also outside the wire. Not wanting to break his flow and stop and look, Fred thinks he still has not won and throws the third dart. This dart hits the FIRST (and second) dart, knocking the second out, and then the third dart ricochets into the, ugh, single seven. The fact that the second dart actually did hit the D16 is now revealed, but then it TOO drops out for all the world to see.

    The question is ... did Fred win? Or does he have 25 left?

    Go ahead and shoot me.

    niles




    Fred wins. The game was over when he hit the D16. Any darts thrown after that point are meaningless, and therefore it would not matter where it landed or what consequence it had on any previously thrown darts. The fact that "Fred" did not see it correctly is irrelavent. Also, in any sort of meaningful game (league, tourney, etc.), you should have a chalker, whose job, besides tallying the score, would include paying strict attention to the match and indicating when a player has hit game shot.
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    Robot
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    PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That's great and all, but try convincing your opponent that, "the second dart was in the double. Good game. No, it was really in, so the game was over."
    Most players have good sportsmanship, but that just sounds shady. If you're not sure when you're throwing, look. Don't just assume it's out.

    Also, I've been chalking before, and not been able to tell if a dart, (say the second dart, which is blocked from my view due to the first dart) is in the double or not. I'm not going to lean in to look. They can ask, and I can take a look. I'm not going to say a word unless I know it's in, or they ask.
    Just another perspective.
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    PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Robot wrote:
    That's great and all, but try convincing your opponent that, "the second dart was in the double. Good game. No, it was really in, so the game was over."
    Most players have good sportsmanship, but that just sounds shady. If you're not sure when you're throwing, look. Don't just assume it's out.

    Also, I've been chalking before, and not been able to tell if a dart, (say the second dart, which is blocked from my view due to the first dart) is in the double or not. I'm not going to lean in to look. They can ask, and I can take a look. I'm not going to say a word unless I know it's in, or they ask.
    Just another perspective.



    I was just viewing it from a technical standpoint, but realistically, if that situation were actually to happen, it would probably play out as you describe. I agree 100%. If it was me who was shooting, and I didn't have a clear view of what was hit, I would always make sure to verify the dart, one way or another, especially game shot, just so that something like this would never happen. It's always a questionable thing to claim you hit something when your dart is on the floor.

    Bottom line is, if you don't want to cause a dispute, either make certain of what you hit, or learn to live with the fact that your opponent may not be receptive to your point of view. So, while technically, you may have won the game, that fact will likely be disputed, without definitive proof, and with game shot lying on the ground.

    The opponent's argument being: "Why would you continue to shoot, if you had already won?"

    Saying that you did not realize at first, will then be disputed by saying: "If it was that close, then things should have been verified beforehand."

    Even if the opponent were to conceed and give the shooter the victory, I am sure there would not be any good feelings about what happened. Better to take a minute and get things right, rather than opening a can of worms, and having to argue your way to a win.
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    PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    We're on the same page. But as we all know, weird things do happen. They make for great stories later.
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Thanks for the clarification and discussion. I can see similar situations arising occasionally. I know that personally I don't like to break my rhythm, especially when just working down during a 501 game. But on an out, it poses more of a dilemma.

    Also while chalking, I totally agree, unless I am asked, I won't lean in and check whether a dart is in or not. Sometimes it's hard to tell, absolutely. Besides being bad form to poke your head in and check more closely ... one could get nailed in the ear!
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