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    Dartplayer Dot Net :: View topic - Filling out score sheets
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    Filling out score sheets

     
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    Fletcher
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    PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Filling out score sheets Reply with quote

    I have a number of issues with the PADA-way of doing things but one that really bugs me is this thing about not filling out the match score sheet all at once, apparently because people think that there is some advantage to be had if the other team knows who is shooting in whatever spot. Which I think is nonsense and makes the whole process of filling out the sheet a pain. So, from now on, I will fill out the complete score sheet at the beginning and if the other team thinks that they can make some advantage by knowing who is shooting in the vaious positions, so be it.

    I made this decision after last week when the opposing team captain all but accused me of cheating because I had to switch around a couple of my players because of the issue of not teaming together the same two players in different doubles matches. By filling out the match score sheet ahead of time, I will be better able to avoid incorrectly matching up double teams.

    Issue 2- Almost nobody knows how to chalk correctly. It would be great if the PADA, or somebody else, could come up with a little course on the proper way of chalking.

    Issue 3- almost nobody knows the ADO tournament rules. It would be nice if the PADA could get a copy of the ADO Tournament rule book to each PADA player.

    Without following proper rules and chalking, everyone would be better off switching to soft tip.

    I think it's about time that the PADA grows up a bit more.

    Fletcher
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    metalrulz
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Hey Fletcher, I shoot in another league and what we do is fold our roster sheet in half. Home roster on one side Away on the other. It gets filled out completely before the start of the match. Not sure if this is helpful , because i have no idea what your roster sheet looks like. Just thought i would throw that out there for you. Shoot well
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    LuckyDart
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    fletcher, there is clearly an advantage of knowing the line up. If you know where the opposing teams strongest player of the night is shooting then you can put your strongest against that player, or a stronger against a weaker player. We all are in competition to win and looking at the at the opposing teams line up before they are called out is not looked upon lightly.

    As far as chalking, chalking is a courtesy we do for each other, if you want a professional chalker, I suggest you play in AA instead of B.

    I would like to know if or when you are planning to teach the courses because I'm sure several would love to attend your courses.
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    CraigB
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I actually don't know how they are running things currently, but they're using most of my setups still...

    As for the scoresheet, four people out of a team of up to six can play each section. By not filling out the entire sheet it allows Captains to change who plays in each section (which happens a lot depending on how the match is playing out, like replacing someone who isn't playing well, and also allows for changes if someone shows up late or has to leave early). I don't see this changing any time soon.

    As for chalking, I wrote an article about it (it's been in a few publications including our Elephant's Tale and can be accessed here in the Downloads area) - though, as you know, it doesn't mean people will read and follow it.

    As for the ADO rules, I put a copy into every Captain's packet (right after the PADA rules) and used to hand them out to team members as well. I have no idea if the current board is doing that still.

    Good to see you at least are playing league this season though Flethcher! Wink
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    crazydarts
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    PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Darts is just like any other sport. You dont see coaches exchanging play books so they know where to place thier players. Razz Who would want to play or watch a game if there was no luck of the draw or a great play on the field. Every match would be a draw, there would be no world series, no super bowl, no world cup, no stanley cup, ect. if they know each others line up and plays. If you did change your line up after seeing the other teams SHAME ON YOU!!
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    SOUPR
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    PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I believe that Fletcher has a good point.
    I have seen teams take an extra 5 min. per set because they have to make sure their line up is perfect.
    Maybe if we use the idea that you can sub in a player but not move people around would work for pre setting the line up. So if some one is shooting badly and another player is available you could sub him in.

    Knowing the line up, I think more is made of it than really matters.

    I do know one thing, in the lower flights in the PADA we have to come up with a way to shorten the match times, I have seen matches go all the way to midnight. That is way to late.

    On the time issue alone I thnk I am going to bring this up at our next board meeting, to help with matches go faster.
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    JohnP
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    PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SOUPR wrote:
    Knowing the line up, I think more is made of it than really matters.


    I agree. The singles matches do need to be mostly random pairings in order for the singles rankings to sort properly. But as long as the order of players is fixed, a substitution here and there shouldn't affect that too much.

    Oh wait, I just thought of something. Couldn't a clever captain of 5 or 6 players leave his best player(s) out of the initial line up, and then sub those players in wherever he wants? Maybe there should be a limit on the amount of subbing, like each player can only sub in once during a match.
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    Isaac
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    PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    How much time are we talking about saving here? I can't see teams/captains taking more than a few minutes to set their lineups. If it takes longer than that, smoke breaks are involved and that is a whole different time problem.

    I can't think of it ever taking me more than a minute or two to write out the lineup for any round - even when I have six people. I think doing it randomly (i.e. writing them out each round before matching them up with the other team) is the easiest way to discourage cheating in any way without having to create new rules for substitutions, etc. to try to keep the game fair.

    One thing that I do as I smoker and highly encourage others to do is to think of the games in the singles round you're not playing to be your smoke break. I don't have an issue with a mid-match group smoke break or anything once a night, but if you really NEED 4 more cigs during your match, smoke them while others are playing singles. In AA this season, every match we play where the team takes a group smoke break before each round lasts a solid hour longer than the other matches. Just my opinion on matches people are concerned about time for.

    I see a lot of people fixing matchups (or offering/suggesting it) for two top players in the season, etc. I think, as JohnP said, we need some level of randomness to make the rankings as fair and comprehensive as possible. We also have incorporated a "Singles playoff" championship night for the top ranked players in each division to get to duke it out for the title.

    If it really takes anyone more than a few minutes to write out your roster, than they either aren't starting when the previous round is done, or need a more quick-thinking captain... Wink
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    SOUPR
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    PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    This is said with the lower rated groups in mind.
    It seems that they B and C leagues are the ones taking up to midnight and usually past 11:00 to get done. These are also the leagues where people seem to take the longest to set their line ups.

    I have seen this where some teams seem to huddle and try to figure a way to come up with their line ups usually taking 5 minutes or more extra during each round.

    These are the areas where we need to do everything we can to speed them up.

    Once again this is my reason for posting this, Is to speed things up.
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    Last edited by SOUPR on Sat May 29, 2010 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Fletcher
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:14 am    Post subject: score sheets Reply with quote

    Went through the rest of the season filling out the score sheet right at the beginning and it worked out just fine. In most cases, the other team just filled out their score sheet after each match and handed it over for me to copy the information. The only issue that rose again ( from the same individual) was that they wanted to read out their players instead of letting me handle their score sheets. Because of my hearing issues, I was not agreeable to this. Finally, they agreed to let me hold their sheet and copy the information, however, it was not okay for me to write in onto their sheet, our player information. Clearly, to me, this individual was overly sensitive to how the score sheet was to be handled. Otherwise, he is a regular, nice guy.

    Because of this, I suggest that the PADA write, and include in the captains packet, a description of how to fill out the match sheet the "PADA Way." I don't particulary care what the PADA way is, other than I really don't like the idea of the captains reading out the players names. In a loud enviroment, I have great difficultiy understnading things like names. I need to be able to read the names of the players.

    I think Andy is right that having the match sheets completely filled out at the beginning would save a fair amount of time in conducting the matches.

    And, to the argument that a team captain can somehow get better results by holding back their lineup until the last mement, I say, "Bull!" You're not going to have much more information later in the match than you do at the beginning. And, because some captains are simply nutcases with their score sheet., I susggest we all agree on the "PADA way" of filling out the match score sheets.

    Fletcher
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    Isaac
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Yo, Fletcher.

    1. Players may play better or worse as the night progresses. If you have more than 4 players on your team (many teams do), it is very significant advantage/importance to play the players who are playing the best as the night progresses, especially in the final singles round and last round of doubles. If it matters to every team except yours, maybe I should try out for your team of non-stop all-stars next season instead of my own team... Wink

    2. If the person is that particular about how the scores are written or copied from sheet to sheet, and your hearing is a problem in that environment, I would suggest standing or sitting next to each other at the bar or a table and simply looking at the other captains sheet as you are saying the name of the player. I think that would largely minimize mishearing a name and would work fairly well in a pinch.

    3. As I already stated I think any time saved from doing this would be minimal. If we are worried about saving time, take fewer smoke breaks or shorter ones. Or fill out your roster and compare them while out on a smoke break and away from the noise of the crowd inside! I do not see this making a difference one way or another on time. Are there really teams or captains that take more than a few minutes to write up the next round?

    4. As far as a "PADA way" of filling out the score sheets... this is from League Rule # 7 in the captain's packet this Spring 2010 Season:

    "All sets are played in the order listed on the score sheet. Team captains must complete each section and then exchange score sheets to verify player matchups before each section is played."

    We DO have a "PADA way" of doing this, and it is stated in the rules. If you want to take this rule literally, it would entitle you to literally physically exchange sheets with someone and copy their lineup for the next round. I do think if someone was opposed to you writing your lieup on their roster, that is fair for them to want to be the only person writing on their team sheet - as 'sensitive' as that may sound.

    Mainly this is something that I don't think would save much time, don't think is a big deal or problematic, and I dislike the idea of creating new rules that we then have to create new regulations, details, etc. over, and evaluate complaints about when people think the other team is using substitutions unfairly or whatever other clauses we'd have to put in a new rule about this subject.

    I think the way it is done now is the most fair, reasonable with the least chance of being exploited. That being said, I have no doubt that this is something the board will discuss and vote on before next season, because we seem to have some sort of fetish for that sort of thing... hehe.

    It is damn hard to keep 200+ people as happy as possible. With that large a group some people will always have problems and complain, but I personally think we do a damn good job of listening to all sides, perspectives and trying to make the best choice possible for the league. [/b]
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    Isaac
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SOUPR wrote:
    This is said with the lower rated groups in mind.
    It seems that they B and C leagues are the ones taking up to midnight and usually past 11:00 to get done. These are also the leagues where people seem to take the longest to set their line ups.

    I have seen this where some teams seem to huddle and try to figure a way to come up with their line ups usuallt\y taking 5 minutes or more extra during each round.

    These are the levals where we need to do everything we can to speed them up.

    Once again this is my reason for posting this, Is to speed things up.


    Having played in the C division for a long time, and pretty recently, I can confidently say that it is not the writing down, setting up or comparing of lineups that delays those games so long. Players and teams in lower divisions are also just more recreational with their evening. It will take them longer. (and most of the people at those levels are not overly distressed about their finishing time)

    I have seen matches slowed down by soft tip players not knowing their outs... should we legislate that as well to try to speed up matches? Twisted Evil Razz

    A game is a game is a game.
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    We originally had the divisions playing different numbers of legs in singles (both in 501 and Cricket) just for this very reason. What we found by keeping track of match lengths that first seaon is that when teams simply played their match all divisions were finished within four minutes of each other on average and all were done before 11pm (our target ending time).

    However, we also found that whenever a C division match went long (even beyond midnight), it was due to the fact that the teams were having too much fun with lots of extra drinks and other mayhem.

    So that tells me that nothing is wrong and, if they play longer on a particular night, then they wanted to play longer on that night. Wink

    Of course, since the new no smoking rule went into effect, I have noticed that all matches now run longer as the smokers go outside at least once an hour. Additionally, instead of playing darts while they smoke they now take up more time due to talking, etc. Not much we can do there unless all smokers are ready to quit!
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    Not much we can do there unless all smokers are ready to quit!


    Quit smoking or quit playing darts? Very Happy The way I've been playing lately, I should give up both, and find some healthier "social habits".

    Back on topic, I've only seen pairings issues a couple of times in the 7 seasons I've played. I liked Soupr's substition idea partly because I kinda wish there was some way to avoid the best player on one team having to play the worst player on the other in singles - seems like that often isn't much fun for either player. (Just an observation, I'm never the best or worst player on my team.)

    However, Isaac hit on a point that I was thinking of, too: whatever time might be saved with pre-determined lineups - maybe 10-15 minutes tops and only in some cases - might be lost on substition debates or confusion.

    Also, I've chalked a few C bracket matches, and the biggest delays I saw were people being really slow with the math when chalking their own, nobody ever chalking except me (probably because of the math issue), and by far the worst, round after round after round of nobody being able to finish the game. I'd swear one leg of '01 took longer than 3 legs in A or AA bracket.

    On the bright side, though, I practically drank for free those nights. They really appreciated having a chalker. And I really needed some liquid courage to stand next to the board while they were sticking darts in the wall between me and the D6 they were aiming at. But I learned how to add some new number combos in '01.

    (Actually, some of the C players were decent shots.)

    Ooh, look, my 100th post.
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    PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    JohnP wrote:
    Ooh, look, my 100th post.


    Still a n00b, eh Troy, er, John? Razz Laughing
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    PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    JohnP wrote:
    Ooh, look, my 100th post.


    Still a n00b, eh Troy, er, John? Razz Laughing


    Yeah, at this rate it'll take another year to get my next rank promotion. But I'm a darn dedicated corporal: almost every post I've made was from my cell phone. It's not the quantity (or quality) that counts, it's the effort, right?
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    PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Knowing the other team's line up indeed does give you a distinct advantage over them. Like people said, you can line your ace up with their undefeated guy and give him his first loss... or you can take your rookie player and line him up with someone who has lost the majority of the time so far. So on and so on. On the other hand though, you are right about the fact that no matter where you play you still have to beat the board and play well to win. You guys really should adopt the folding the line-up over method because as long as the other team does not cheat and sneek a peek then you are both filing out your roster blindly and fairly. All you have to go on is what you might know that the other team has done in the past and that's the fairest way of doing it as far as I can tell.
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    PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Actually, it's usually a good idea to line up your worst player against their best, your best against their second-best and on down. Sacrifice one for the sake of the team! Twisted Evil
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    PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    CraigB wrote:
    Actually, it's usually a good idea to line up your worst player against their best, your best against their second-best and on down. Sacrifice one for the sake of the team! Twisted Evil


    Haha ya you're right. That definitely is an effective strategy. In fact a team did use that against us just two weeks ago. They knew we'd be putting a good player in the 6th singles game and so they lined their losingest player up with our anchor man and then the rest of their guys had a better shot during their games.
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    PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That is very sad but true, that people set up their worst just to play your best. I know many people call that good planning, But I always want to play the best player on the other team.

    I know I play with a different mind set than many.
    I like to play the best no matter who it is.

    I also know that many teams will take a win no matter how they get it.
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    PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    in competition we play to win. as far as being fair... I lost a game the other night just for being fair and not making the game a slaughter. I didn't think I would lose this game. I played a fair game so there would be good attitude for the rest of the games. but instead I lost to those darts that didn't mean to go to that number "lucky darts" so no more fair games Laughing
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    PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    SOUPR wrote:
    That is very sad but true, that people set up their worst just to play your best. I know many people call that good planning, But I always want to play the best player on the other team.


    Sorry, you'll just have to get used to playing me instead!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Blind rosters are the best. I agree it doesnt really matter if you know who your playing or not. Thats why there are different levels of divisions, lets say ur in a B division and there are a few players a little better than you u should still have a good chance of beating them or u need to move down a level. Most of time u dont even know how good a player can play. I guess in an open roster league it would suck to be the best player on a team and get no competition cause the other team sacrifices lambs to praise you.
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    PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I'm just letting the new board decide for themselves, but when I was director we found that pairing up caused other issues like "lower skilled" team members complaining that they only ended up playing each other and they never got the chance to play the better players on the other team. So we went to blind rosters and that solved the issues. The only reason to do it section by section is to give each Captain the chance to sub someone in or out depending on how they're playing (or if someone arrives late or needs to leave early). If the entire match line-up was filled out up-front then this substituting couldn't happen (or there would be complaints about subbing to better the match-ups).

    Note that our matches are designed for four person teams, but you can have up to six on a team.
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