128 finish?

Discussion in 'Practice, Strategy & Technique' started by Scatman, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Barry_French

    Barry_French New Member

    T18 T18 D10 is the way I would go for this. The main argument has been outlined for this already

    I would recommend that if you have a choice, leaving yourself 127 or 130 would be better options than 128 as you only need one treble to leave a shot at a double (which would be the Bull).

    128 and 129 outshots are ones to really be avoided if you can help it.

    Baz ;)
  2. chunky

    chunky New Member

    Absolutely correct, Baz. I have never been a fan of the concept of "leaving it even", as so many players are wont to do, but in this case, it is far better to leave a 130. Of course, there are other other numbers which could fall into the same category, such as 131, 133, and 134. Oh, and 99 of course!

  3. CraigB

    CraigB Best looking Craig B in the forum! $:-{P> Staff Member Site Admin

    Since Steve (Chunky) has already made most of the comments I would have, I will only say that if my opponent is on an out that I would go T18, T18, D10 with 128 (plus I happen to like T18). If my opponent was not on an out, I always go T20 because I want to avoid a DB finish unless necessary. I'd rather have at least one dart at a big double than one at that little middle double (plus all the messy cleanup if you miss the DB).

    I also like that Baz pointed out that a little planning helps you avoid situations like this. Unfortunately, I'm still working on certain people to NOT go for another 20 with their last dart when they are on 179... :roll:

    Statistically speaking, I think it would be interesting to see the difference between going for the T20 first and the T18's. The main thing that most people don't notice (but was mentioned above by Steve) is that you are really comparing how often your FIRST dart is a T20 with how often you get either two T18's or a S18 with a T20. In the first instance you must hit a triple with your first dart, in the second instance you must hit a triple with your second dart. The first instance leads to a DB finish (unless you slip into the T18 with your second dart) and the second instance leads to either a big double or the same DB.

    Hehe... pretty heady stuff Steve! Aren't you the "Don't think, just throw" guy? :p :lol:
  4. BlackHorse

    BlackHorse Moderator Site Moderator

    Related question then, for Chunky - how often would you, yourself, be likely to hit a DB finish in game play? Out of 10, say.

    If I hit 1/10, I am not likely to set up for a DB Out regardless of my opponent's position, for example. I will play the longer odds and expect/hope to finish in two rounds rather than one, if I miss the T20.

    Because if I miss the DB on that last dart, I am more than likely to leave something that requires more cleanup.
  5. chunky

    chunky New Member

    You obviously don't know the story... Years ago, when my outchart was published in BEN, I said that 18's was by far the best shot. Then, some fat Canadian questioned my wisdom, saying that statistically, 20's was best. He issued a challenge, which I duly accepted, and as my esteemed colleague Jason has already verified, I lost money...

    As you know, the important thing about the "don't think, just throw" philosophy, is that you don't think WHILE you are throwing!

  6. InFESTation

    InFESTation New Member

    Would you still do it if the cocky Northerner hit it :lol:
  7. MzzThang

    MzzThang New Member

    Problem being, BH, is that if you don't attempt it, you will NEVER hit it. You may try to set up a better shot for your next turn, and then you may not get a next turn. You need to take the shot if you know there's even the slightest chance that you're not going to get another turn. Just remember, a double is a double...is a double...is a double...
  8. chunky

    chunky New Member

    Probably 2 or 3. However, the important thing is not that I missed it, but I actually had a shot at it.

    Sorry, but that is a very bad philosphy. As I said, it doesn't matter how much you like a particular double, if you don't get a shot at it. It's the same as you sitting on 188 with one dart in your hand, and choosing not to shoot a fat 18 to leave 170.

    Maybe you don't think you'll hit the 170, but you have an infinitely better chance than you would of finishing a 168!!! Besides, if you don't think you can hit a 170, what makes you think you can hit a 128. The trouble, the more we can dissect this philosphy, the more turns you are giving your oppnent, which is hardly what you want to be doing.

    If your opponent takes it out, it doesn't matter, does it? At least you gave yourself the chance to win. What good is it if you don't? That's what we are saying here. If your opponent can't finish, go what way you like, but if this is going to be your last shot, you'd better make sure you hit it! The setup means nothing.

    Would you gain any satisfaction from telling someone, "Even though I chose not to go for the out, I set myself up on 32 when he finished"? Is sitting on 32 when he finished, better than sitting on 25, because you had a chance to win, but missed the bull?

    One other thing to remember. If you start hitting tournaments, it doesn't matter how good or bad you are, good players will laugh at you; they'll think you don't know what you are doing. The worse thing about that is that you'll immediately be giving your opponent extra confidence, because they know that you will be giving them an extra shot or two during the game.

    Even if you don't hit the shots, if somebody sees that you know what you are doing, and are going for the smart shots, you will immediately gain their respect. If you know that others look up to you because you are smart, that will help your game.

  9. Art

    Art Member

    Triple 18 is the only way to go with 128 left, it just makes alot more sence to me that if i miss the triple i can still finish it. You need 2 bad darts to mess up your out. If you got the other way one bad dart and you done. That is figureing your oppenant is a good shot.
  10. Erik

    Erik Site Owner Staff Member Site Admin Site Moderator

    Funny ;) I voted Trip 18 without even thinking about it....but I have taken out 128 by hitting T20, T20, D4...it can be done :)

    I do tell new shooters to shoot the T20 when looking at 110 and above and advise them that at some point they'll learn to do otherwise in certain situations. Specifically the ones Steve mentions -- after all a single 20 when shooting for 119 is disastrous.

    However, there should be a clarification why I tell newer shooters to go for T20 when there may be better options -- I do this to teach them to not spend too much time worrying about what to hit or trying to figure out an out chart while on the line. I firmly believe that a confident shot at the T20 when a T18 might be better is far better then debating the issue at the oche and missing the 'right' shot all together because of that debate.

    Eventually players will learn more and more...just as they first learn that D16 is the best option to shoot for, but later learn that other doubles are just as valuable depending on the out and the players level of ability.

    What one must know really, is that I am always trying to learn and am always trying to teach and I find that new shooters just are too overwhelmed to think of things like T20, T19, D12 for 141...it overwhelms them so instead I start by teaching them to not worry so much about it but to work on their outs in a progression. Start here, get there.

    And discard the outchart while you're at it.

  11. Peter501

    Peter501 New Member

    I fully understand wht people go for T18 just incse they miss the treble the finish is possible BUT why do people think they will hit the bull if they dont hit the treble.

    It is a coin toss which way is better in my view
  12. snapyourfingers

    snapyourfingers New Member

    128 CHECKOUT



  13. BlackHorse

    BlackHorse Moderator Site Moderator

    Thanks for the answers, and while I do appreciate the logic, I still do think that the DB is longer odds than other doubles, because it is a smaller target - it is the only double that is not equal to the other doubles.

    I left myself 69 after my first dart last night in league, and I actually did try 19, DB! I didn't even get a SB which I was some mad about. But the 18 slop left my partner the 32 which he finished!

    If I could use some of the DB's I hit in warmup or in diddles, that would be a different story.... :wink:
  14. chunky

    chunky New Member

    Yeah, but what happens if you shoot for a S20 and hit the triple? That's another reason why T18, T18, D10 is favorite.

  15. chunky

    chunky New Member

    With 128 and 129, I agree. However, it's not necessarily a case of people thinking they will hit the bull if they don't hit a triple; it's knowing that you don't have to hit it FIRST dart. Even with 68 with two darts left, you have the choice of the triple as well as the single - a triple is a bonus, but a single will also work.

    Again, not so much with these numbers, but with a shot like 126. A first dart triple is not a necessity, it's a BONUS. If you hit the first triple, a second dart triple is not a necessity, it's a BONUS.

  16. Erik

    Erik Site Owner Staff Member Site Admin Site Moderator

    By the way Steve, I've quoted you often, used you as a reference several times and always try to learn from you!

    We've had some great debates (especially on dart players) but those debates did a lot of my game and my knowledge of outs and cricket strategy.

    So though I may debate things with you, that's just the way I am, but I'm usually the first to tell people "Steve Brown taught me how to play cricket". And we've never met! hehe

    Dartplayer was great for that and I strive to maintain that here.

    Thanks again for being here, passing on your wealth of knowledge and putting up with my debates! hehe

  17. snapyourfingers

    snapyourfingers New Member

  18. chunky

    chunky New Member

    You're still missing the point. Yes, the bull is longer odds than a conventional double. However, which is the longer odds here. You have 68 left with two darts in your hand:

    Triple - conventional double
    Single - Double bull

    If you don't think you can hit the bull, what makes you think you're good enough to hit triple, double - TWO PERFECT DARTS.

    You will not win unless you give yourself a shot at a double, and it's no good relying on your opponent to miss.

    More than that, the philosophy here is : if you hit the triple, you leave a conventional double. If you don't, you still have a double.

  19. chunky

    chunky New Member

    Obviously, 60 is one of the few numbers that you usually choose to go where you can bust. That's why on a shot like this, if I can, I avoid leaving it. Busting a ton-plus out really sucks...

  20. Erik

    Erik Site Owner Staff Member Site Admin Site Moderator

    Hitting the DB on the final dart could be a conversation in and of itself, but I have to say it here too:

    There is nothing like hitting that DB to finish a big out. It's the shot I really feel like shouting "COME ON!!!"

    It's a shot that really gets you going, raises your mood, your darts and your confidence. I love hitting it despite not doing it nearly enough!

    Last season I had 3 big outs on the DB and let me tell you, those were far more satisfying then my 145 and 141 outs that were 'right'. Even though the DB finishes were smaller :)


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